Discussion:
[DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
Sebastian Hellmann
2017-07-05 14:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Dear all,

we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
(http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit

We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.

Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
'\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)'
> dbo_no_mappings.nt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)

We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .

This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday
per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also
discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam,
co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017

Thank you for your help!

[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
<http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
John Flynn
2017-07-05 15:43:02 UTC
Permalink
I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just took a look at the ontology represented in (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as referenced in the email below.
I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.

John Flynn
http://semanticsimulations.com



From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

Dear all,
we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\ <http://schema.org/|http:/www.wikidata.org/|http:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/> )' > dbo_no_mappings.nt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any axioms...)

We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .

This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017

Thank you for your help!

[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT) Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org, http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt <http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
Sebastian Hellmann
2017-07-05 15:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,


On 05.07.2017 17:43, John Flynn wrote:
>
> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
> just took a look at the ontology represented in
> (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
> referenced in the email below.
>
> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
> were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of
> the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>
> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
> Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award,
> Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
> ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
> BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the
> DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the
> ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A
> working group needs to be established to go back to the drawing board
> and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly
> doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>

Yes, and we are doing exactly that in a parallel process. Ideally, both
will be finished at the same time, i.e. clean up and new editor and
automatic validation of edits via SHACL/RDFUnit in a pre-commit hook
plus editorial guidelines and process . So three example concerns for
the editor are whether we can add labels/comments for 170 languages, how
they are integrated with the DBpedia Template mappings and also whether
domain experts can help with non-core domain ontologies.

Cheers,
Sebastian

> John Flynn
>
> http://semanticsimulations.com
>
> *From:*Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
> *To:* 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
> *Subject:* [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
> Dear all,
>
> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
> (http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started
> to collect requirements/tools here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>
> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
> GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
> only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>
> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
> push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide
> a core version for demo purposes created with:
> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
> '\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
> <http://schema.org/%7Chttp:/www.wikidata.org/%7Chttp:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
> > dbo_no_mappings.nt
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
> axioms...)
>
> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1]
> or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .
>
> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
> Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first
> Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We
> will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in
> Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
> http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>
> --
> All the best,
> Sebastian Hellmann
>
> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
> Competence Center
> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
> http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
> <http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
> Research Group: http://aksw.org
>

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
<http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
Sebastian Hellmann
2017-07-05 18:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi again,


On 05.07.2017 17:58, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> On 05.07.2017 17:43, John Flynn wrote:
>>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
>> just took a look at the ontology represented in
>> (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
>> referenced in the email below.
>>
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
>> were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea
>> of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>>
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
>> Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma,
>> Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
>> ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
>> BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that
>> the DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure
>> of the ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new
>> editor. A working group needs to be established to go back to the
>> drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It
>> certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>>
>
> Yes, and we are doing exactly that in a parallel process. Ideally,
> both will be finished at the same time, i.e. clean up and new editor
> and automatic validation of edits via SHACL/RDFUnit in a pre-commit
> hook plus editorial guidelines and proces.

To give you a concrete idea how this will work:

The editorial guideline would state: "Thou shalt not add more top level
classes" and below I added an example of an RDFUnit test case [1] [2]
that finds all these classes mentioned by you.
Each commit will run this test on the continuous integration server and
since it is an error the commit will not pass automatically. This needs
to be run on Jena with Pellet or another reasoning enabled in-memory
SPARQL engine.
We are discussing these test cases at the moment in parallel.


rutt:no-new-top-level-classes
a rut:ManualTestCase ;
dcterms:description " retrieves all toplevel classes, i.e. direct
subclasses of owl:Thing and throws an error, if these are not in the
selected list of top classes ";
rut:appliesTo rut:Schema ;
rut:generated rut:ManuallyGenerated ;
rut:references <http://dbpedia.org/ontology/> ;
rut:source <http://dbpedia.org/ontology/> ;
rut:testCaseLogLevel rlog:ERROR ;
rut:sparqlWhere """ {
?class rdfs:subClassOf owl:Thing .
FILTER NOT EXISTS { ?class rdfs:subClassOf ?otherClass .
FILTER (?otherClass !=
owl:Thing) .
}
FILTER (?class != <top-level-class1> && ?this !=
<top-level-class2> && .....)

} """ ;

# snip ....


[1] http://rdfunit.aksw.org/
[2] Test-driven evaluation of linked data quality
<http://svn.aksw.org/papers/2014/WWW_Databugger/public.pdf>. Dimitris
Kontokostas, Patrick Westphal, Sören Auer, Sebastian Hellmann, Jens
Lehmann, Roland Cornelissen, and Amrapali J. Zaveri in Proceedings of
the 23rd International Conference on World Wide Web.


--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
<http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-14 17:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Where is the parallel cleanup of the ontology happening?

peter

On 07/05/2017 08:58 AM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>
> On 05.07.2017 17:43, John Flynn wrote:
>>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just took
>> a look at the ontology represented in
>> (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
>> referenced in the email below.
>>
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down
>> class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed as
>> a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the organization of
>> the DBpedia class structure.
>>
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia
>> classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work, Blazon,
>> Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
>> PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
>> Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
>> this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry a
>> lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing on
>> selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go back
>> to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It
>> certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>>
>
> Yes, and we are doing exactly that in a parallel process. Ideally, both will
> be finished at the same time, i.e. clean up and new editor and automatic
> validation of edits via SHACL/RDFUnit in a pre-commit hook plus editorial
> guidelines and process . So three example concerns for the editor are whether
> we can add labels/comments for 170 languages, how they are integrated with the
> DBpedia Template mappings and also whether domain experts can help with
> non-core domain ontologies.
>
> Cheers,
> Sebastian
Paul Houle
2017-07-06 15:02:53 UTC
Permalink
I would disagree.

The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.

What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web",
the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of
it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate
or even closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to
go after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."

There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
conventional application development and introductory computer science,
the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants
required for a particular algorithm. Practically that means that you
might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry
Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better represented than J.
Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you would probably find that
the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a tree.

If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at
all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data
collected by a large organization".



------ Original Message ------
From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'"
<public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'"
<Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

>I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
>took a look at the ontology represented in
>(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
>referenced in the email below.
>
>I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
>were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of
>the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>
>To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
>Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award,
>Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
>ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
>BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the
>DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the
>ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A
>working group needs to be established to go back to the drawing board
>and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly
>doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>
>
>
>John Flynn
>
>http://semanticsimulations.com
>
>
>
>
>From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>DBpedia
>
>
>
>Dear all,
>
>we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
>(http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
>collect requirements/tools here:
>
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>
>We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
>GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
>only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>
>Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
>push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide
>a core version for demo purposes created with:
>rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
>'\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
><http://schema.org/|http:/www.wikidata.org/|http:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
> > dbo_no_mappings.nt
>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
>axioms...)
>
>We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
>make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
>and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
>https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .
>
>This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
>Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday
>per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also
>discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam,
>co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
>http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>
>Thank you for your help!
>
>[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>
>--
>All the best,
>Sebastian Hellmann
>
>Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
>Competence Center
>at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
><http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
>Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>Research Group: http://aksw.org
>
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-06 18:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Virtus in medium est.

I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and
other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to
be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere
documentation.

However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.


What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an
exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual
product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should
reflect that, without getting in details about how software is encoded,
versioned, reified etc., since these details are important only to
applications dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia
itself.

A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a subconcept
of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very hard do
disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such refactoring is
needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining, such as
creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the name of
keeping the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are needed to
sort things out, but one should also avoid defining things like
disjointness because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness
and other stuff which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.

But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make much
sense.

Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
Petrobras, Brazil
=============================================





De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'"
<***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'"
<semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia'
<Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



I would disagree.

The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.

What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web",
the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of
it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate
or even closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to go
after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."

There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of conventional
application development and introductory computer science, the data is
not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants required for a
particular algorithm. Practically that means that you might ask for "US
States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson
has their career much better represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric
S. Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree of life" in
DBpedia is not really a tree.

If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you are
willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at
all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data
collected by a large organization".



------ Original Message ------
From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
took a look at the ontology represented in (
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
referenced in the email below.
I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down
class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed
as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the
organization of the DBpedia class structure.
To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia
classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work,
Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry
a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing
on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go
back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top
down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.

John Flynn
http://semanticsimulations.com


From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

Dear all,
we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our GSoC
student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(
http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
)' > dbo_no_mappings.nt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)

We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .

This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia Dev
online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per
month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss
the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located
with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017

Thank you for your help!

[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
DBpedia-discussion mailing list
DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion




"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
Sebastian Samaruga
2017-07-06 19:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect
to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common.
Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and
'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of
Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass
would have a superset of the properties of a subclass.

Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
Sebastian.

> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>>
>> Virtus in medium est.
>>
>> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and other
relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to be there
if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere documentation.
>>
>> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.
>>
>> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt DBpedia
genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an exact
definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual product,
such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should reflect
that, without getting in details about how software is encoded, versioned,
reified etc., since these details are important only to applications
dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
>>
>> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very
hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such
refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining,
such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the
name of keeping the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are
needed to sort things out, but one should also avoid defining things like
disjointness because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness and
other stuff which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>>
>> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make
much sense.
>>
>> Cheers.
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> Petrobras, Brazil
>> =============================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'"
<***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
>> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> I would disagree.
>>
>> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.
>>
>> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web", the
emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of it as
a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate or even
closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to go after the
long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
>>
>> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
conventional application development and introductory computer science,
the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants
required for a particular algorithm. Practically that means that you might
ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry Bonds or
Mel Gibson has their career much better represented than J. Edgar Hoover
or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree of
life" in DBpedia is not really a tree.
>>
>> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at all
from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data collected
by a large organization".
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
>> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia
>>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
took a look at the ontology represented in (
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
referenced in the email below.
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were
listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the
organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work,
Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry
a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing
on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go
back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top
down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>>
>> John Flynn
>> http://semanticsimulations.com
>>
>>
>> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:
>>
>>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>>
>> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
>> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|
http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
dbo_no_mappings.nt
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)
>>
>> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc and
post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>>
>> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per
month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss the
editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with
SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>> --
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian Hellmann
>>
>> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
>> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> Research Group:
http://aksw.org------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado.
Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou
qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema
Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e
criminal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal
policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or
criminal sanctions."
>>
>>
>>
>> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil
y penal."
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-07 17:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may be
true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a birthDate,
but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that, there are other
things such as Lion that have birthDates and such individuals do not
belong to the class Person. In other words, the domain of birthDate is not
Persons. Neither is it applicable to all living beings: what part of a
Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in
humans there is a large debate regarding birth and conception -- when is
the gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of
an era or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property
birthDate can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it is a
subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate SHOULD be
applicable only to persons, and not to other animals. Property and domain
definitions are part of the ontology definition, and a lot of them are
lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's ontology. For example, the
property date has a correct range of xsd:date, but the domain is defined
as owl:Thing, which means anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally
wrong: the domain should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is
not exactly a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the
dbPedia Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not easy
to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.

An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
Plato’s man.’

Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by automata
that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot rely just on
that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to check if the result
makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors such as infering that
Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes because they have the same
properties. Sometimes the distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may
argue that in this case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but
that is another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)


Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
=============================================





De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@lists.spline.inf.fu-berlin.de
Cc: Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Data: 2017-07-06 16:08
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect
to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common.
Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and
'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of
Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass
would have a superset of the properties of a subclass.
Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
Sebastian.
> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>>
>> Virtus in medium est.
>>
>> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and
other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to
be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere
documentation.
>>
>> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.

>>
>> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an
exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual
product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should
reflect that, without getting in details about how software is encoded,
versioned, reified etc., since these details are important only to
applications dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia
itself.
>>
>> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very
hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such
refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining,
such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the
name of keeping the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are
needed to sort things out, but one should also avoid defining things like
disjointness because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness
and other stuff which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>>
>> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make
much sense.
>>
>> Cheers.
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> Petrobras, Brazil
>> =============================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian
Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
>> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> I would disagree.
>>
>> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.
>>
>> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic
web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second.
Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to
replicate or even closely describe the performance or rules of the game,
but to go after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to
ontologize."
>>
>> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
conventional application development and introductory computer science,
the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants
required for a particular algorithm. Practically that means that you
might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry
Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better represented than J. Edgar
Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree
of life" in DBpedia is not really a tree.
>>
>> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at
all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data
collected by a large organization".
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
>> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia
>>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
took a look at the ontology represented in (
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
referenced in the email below.
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were
listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the
organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award,
Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule.
I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia
community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology
itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group
needs to be established to go back to the drawing board and look at the
DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense
as it is currently structured.
>>
>> John Flynn
>> http://semanticsimulations.com
>>
>>
>> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:
>>
>>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit

>>
>> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
>> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|
http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
dbo_no_mappings.nt
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)
>>
>> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>>
>> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday
per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also
discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam,
co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>> --
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian Hellmann
>>
>> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
>> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> Research Group:
http://aksw.org------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado.
Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou
qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema
Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e
criminal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary,
civil or criminal sanctions."
>>
>>
>>
>> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
civil y penal."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
DBpedia-discussion mailing list
DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion




"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-07 18:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may be
true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a birthDate,
but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that, there are other
things such as Lion that have birthDates and such individuals do not
belong to the class Person. In other words, the domain of birthDate is not
Persons. Neither is it applicable to all living beings: what part of a
Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in
humans there is a large debate regarding birth and conception -- when is
the gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of
an era or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property
birthDate can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it is a
subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate SHOULD be
applicable only to persons, and not to other animals. Property and domain
definitions are part of the ontology definition, and a lot of them are
lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's ontology. For example, the
property date has a correct range of xsd:date, but the domain is defined
as owl:Thing, which means anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally
wrong: the domain should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is
not exactly a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the
dbPedia Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not easy
to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.

An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
Plato’s man.’

Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by automata
that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot rely just on
that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to check if the result
makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors such as infering that
Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes because they have the same
properties. Sometimes the distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may
argue that in this case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but
that is another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)


Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
=============================================

=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
user-id: bi70
ramal: 706-7507

tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
=============================================
dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
postero.
-- Horatius





De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod
<public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Hellmann
<***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia
<Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
<semantic-***@w3c.org>
Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect
to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common.
Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and
'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of
Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass
would have a superset of the properties of a subclass.
Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
Sebastian.
On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
Virtus in medium est.

I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and
other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to
be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere
documentation.

However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.


What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an
exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual
product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should
reflect that, without getting in details about how software is encoded,
versioned, reified etc., since these details are important only to
applications dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia
itself.

A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a subconcept
of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very hard do
disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such refactoring is
needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining, such as
creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the name of
keeping the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are needed to
sort things out, but one should also avoid defining things like
disjointness because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness
and other stuff which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.

But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make much
sense.

Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
Petrobras, Brazil
=============================================





De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <
***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



I would disagree.

The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.

What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web",
the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of
it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate
or even closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to go
after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."

There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of conventional
application development and introductory computer science, the data is
not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants required for a
particular algorithm. Practically that means that you might ask for "US
States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson
has their career much better represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric
S. Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree of life" in
DBpedia is not really a tree.

If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you are
willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at
all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data
collected by a large organization".



------ Original Message ------
From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
took a look at the ontology represented in (
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
referenced in the email below.
I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down
class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed
as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the
organization of the DBpedia class structure.
To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia
classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work,
Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry
a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing
on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go
back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top
down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.

John Flynn
http://semanticsimulations.com


From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

Dear all,
we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our GSoC
student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(
http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
)' > dbo_no_mappings.nt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)

We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/.

This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia Dev
online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per
month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss
the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located
with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017

Thank you for your help!

[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
DBpedia-discussion mailing list
DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion





"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."



"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."



"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
civil y penal."



"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
Sebastian Samaruga
2017-07-07 23:41:20 UTC
Permalink
OK. I agree with you. But what if one could infer such types not only for
subjects but also for properties (domain / range) and objects playing some
role in an statement. And what if this builds hierarchies of more
generalized / specialized types (or what I call 'Kinds'): more / less
attributes in common, being this kinds the roles played by a resource in
some context (statement). And maybe further aggregating the 'facts' (data)
layer of statements into an information layer (aggregating data, kinds and
resources) and later aggregating knowledge (behavior / state transitions)
from previous layers. All this 'reifying' kinds as resources in a sort of
'grammar' statements.

Its a very early draft but I'd like to document what I'm trying to say
about this models at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OqsVn6uo0cr6qruzWj9yRASrmvAIAf4HsHuLS2aRSy8/edit?usp=drivesdk

Best regards,
Sebastian.
On Jul 7, 2017 3:11 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:

> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
> subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
> defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may be
> true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a birthDate,
> but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that, there are other
> things such as Lion that have birthDates and such individuals do not belong
> to the class Person. In other words, the domain of birthDate is not
> Persons. Neither is it applicable to all living beings: what part of a Frog
> or Butterfly lifeline is the 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans
> there is a large debate regarding birth and conception -- when is the
> gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an era
> or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property birthDate can
> be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the property. Bear
> in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it is a subclass of
> PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate SHOULD be applicable only to
> persons, and not to other animals. Property and domain definitions are part
> of the ontology definition, and a lot of them are lacking or
> inappropriately defined DBpedia's ontology. For example, the property date
> has a correct range of xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing,
> which means anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the
> domain should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly
> a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia Event is
> not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take days, and a
> SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not easy to get
> everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
>
> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
> Plato’s man.’
>
> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by automata
> that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot rely just on
> that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to check if the result
> makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors such as infering that
> Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes because they have the same
> properties. Sometimes the distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may
> argue that in this case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but
> that is another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)
>
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> =============================================
>
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> user-id: bi70
> ramal: 706-7507
>
> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> =============================================
> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
> postero.
> -- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
> public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Hellmann
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.
> sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C <semantic-***@w3c.org>
> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
> for DBpedia
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect
> to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common.
> Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and
> 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of
> Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass
> would have a superset of the properties of a subclass.
>
> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
> Sebastian.
>
> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <****@petrobras.com.br*
> <***@petrobras.com.br>> wrote:
> Virtus in medium est.
>
> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
> some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
> relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and other
> relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to be there
> if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere documentation.
>
> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
> scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
> boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
> and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.
>
> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
> foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt DBpedia
> genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an exact
> definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual product,
> such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should reflect
> that, without getting in details about how software is encoded, versioned,
> reified etc., since these details are important only to applications
> dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
>
> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a subconcept
> of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very hard do
> disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such refactoring is
> needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining, such as creating
> subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the name of keeping
> the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are needed to sort
> things out, but one should also avoid defining things like disjointness
> because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness and other stuff
> which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>
> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make much
> sense.
>
> *Cheers.*
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> Petrobras, Brazil
> =============================================
>
>
>
>
>
> De: "Paul Houle" <****@ontology2.com*
> <***@ontology2.com>>
> Para: "John Flynn" <****@verizon.net* <***@verizon.net>>,
> "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <****@informatik.uni-leipzig.de*
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
> *semantic-***@w3c.org* <semantic-***@w3c.org>>, 'public-lod' <
> *public-***@w3.org* <public-***@w3.org>>, 'DBpedia' <
> *Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net*
> <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>
> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
> for DBpedia
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> I would disagree.
>
> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
> reasoning.
>
> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
> exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web", the
> emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of it as
> a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate or even
> closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to go after the
> long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
>
> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of conventional
> application development and introductory computer science, the data is not
> always factually correct or satisfies the invariants required for a
> particular algorithm. Practically that means that you might ask for "US
> States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has
> their career much better represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S.
> Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia
> is not really a tree.
>
> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you are
> willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures appropriate
> for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from DBpedia,
> doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at all from the
> situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data collected by a large
> organization".
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "John Flynn" <****@verizon.net* <***@verizon.net>>
> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <****@informatik.uni-leipzig.de*
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>; "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
> *semantic-***@w3c.org* <semantic-***@w3c.org>>; "'public-lod'" <
> *public-***@w3.org* <public-***@w3.org>>; "'DBpedia'" <
> *Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net*
> <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>
> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
>
> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
> took a look at the ontology represented in (
> *https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt*
> <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt>) as
> referenced in the email below.
> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down
> class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed as
> a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the organization of
> the DBpedia class structure.
> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia
> classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work, Blazon,
> Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
> PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
> Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
> this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry
> a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing
> on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go
> back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top
> down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>
> John Flynn
> *http://semanticsimulations.com* <http://semanticsimulations.com/>
>
>
> *From:* Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:****@informatik.uni-leipzig.de*
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
> *To:* 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
> *Subject:* [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
> *http://mappings.dbpedia.org* <http://mappings.dbpedia.org/>) to another
> ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools here:
>
>
> *https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit*
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit>
>
> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our GSoC
> student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
> consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
> push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
> core version for demo purposes created with:
> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(
> *http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\*
> <http://schema.org/%7Chttp:/www.wikidata.org/%7Chttp:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
> > dbo_no_mappings.nt
>
> *https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt*
> <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt>
> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
> axioms...)
>
> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
> make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc and
> post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
> *https://dbpedia.slack.com/* <https://dbpedia.slack.com/>.
>
> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia Dev
> online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per
> month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss the
> editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with
> SEMANTiCS on 14.9. *http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017*
> <http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017>
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> [1] *https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion*
> <https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion>
>
> --
> All the best,
> Sebastian Hellmann
>
> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
> Competence Center
> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> Projects: *http://dbpedia.org* <http://dbpedia.org/>, *http://nlp2rdf.org*
> <http://nlp2rdf.org/>, *http://linguistics.okfn.org*
> <http://linguistics.okfn.org/>, *https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt*
> <http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
> Homepage: *http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann*
> <http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann>
> Research Group: *http://aksw.org* <http://aksw.org/>---------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! *http://sdm.link/slashdot*
> <http://sdm.link/slashdot>_______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> *DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net*
> <DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> *https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion*
> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion>
>
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
> Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
> autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
> ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
> proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
> The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
> publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
> action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
> is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
> la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
> cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
> Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil
> y penal."
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
> Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
> autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
> ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
> proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
> The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
> publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
> action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
> is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
> la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
> cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
> Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil
> y penal."
>
Olivier Rossel
2017-07-11 17:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Here is my quite off-topic opinion as the maintainer of Datao.net and
search.datao.net.
(== expect very biased opinions :)

There is a gap to bridge between the data modelers and the service
implementors.
A feedback loop. A community. Something in common...

Inside a J2EE project, the shared point between service implementors and DB
data modelers is the DAO layer. (I see that as the query repository of an
application, but some disagree with my definition.)
Nothing like this DAO layer exists in the LinkedData (as far as I know).
Exposing the DB publicly is seen as an end. But it is just the beginning.
The DB modelers must stay in touch with the service implementors. There
must be a common ground.

My idea, when I developped Datao.net, was to create a tool for that.

Service providers could access a SPARQL endpoint and its data model,
quickly build DAOs on top of it, and then expose a REST service. In a few
clicks [1].

DB modelers could then use the same tool to harvest a maximum of query
pattern on their DB model. Understand the usages. And refactor their DB
acordingly.

Service implementors and DB modelers could then discuss when and why a
given modeling was too poor/inappropriate for a given usage.

I still think such kind of tools are a good common ground for both sides.

So my current thought is this:
May be, the DBPedia community could start developping data services on top
of DBPedia (with Callibacus, Datao or whatever), just to eat their own
dogfood. I think that, eventually, that will create a workflow where you go
from a service idea to the ontology details to the Wikipedia extractor to
the various problems that appear to discussions on improvements. And so
on...

This initiative could then be promoted to external service implementors, to
create a community.


[1]: So the graphical query "Person Details" (cf the attached
1_Person_Details.jpg) would become a REST service like this:

http://mywebsite/Person_Details?person=http://dbpedia.
org/resource/Bill_Gates
http://mywebsite/Person_Details?birthPlace=http://
dbpedia.org/resource/Toulouse
Ricardo Usbeck
2017-07-12 07:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

thanks for the interesting discussion about the (re-)modelling of the ontology. Also the idea of Oliver is very interesting in terms of decoupling.

My two cents are: First, many applications and approaches are written so they work with what is present now. If you change too much in how DBpedia is structured, I see many applications breaking when they update to a newer version of DBpedia. This is what our research group already saw in the last releases. Minor changes, big effects.

Second, the community has created the current state of DBpedia. So it would be interesting to see, how large the percentage of people is that actually like the current structure (i.e. are not discussing a change here)? And how many just want a better editing option?

Best regards
Ricardo

> On 11. Jul 2017, at 19:53, Olivier Rossel <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is my quite off-topic opinion as the maintainer of Datao.net and search.datao.net <http://search.datao.net/>.
> (== expect very biased opinions :)
>
> There is a gap to bridge between the data modelers and the service implementors.
> A feedback loop. A community. Something in common...
>
> Inside a J2EE project, the shared point between service implementors and DB data modelers is the DAO layer. (I see that as the query repository of an application, but some disagree with my definition.)
> Nothing like this DAO layer exists in the LinkedData (as far as I know). Exposing the DB publicly is seen as an end. But it is just the beginning. The DB modelers must stay in touch with the service implementors. There must be a common ground.
>
> My idea, when I developped Datao.net, was to create a tool for that.
>
> Service providers could access a SPARQL endpoint and its data model, quickly build DAOs on top of it, and then expose a REST service. In a few clicks [1].
>
> DB modelers could then use the same tool to harvest a maximum of query pattern on their DB model. Understand the usages. And refactor their DB acordingly.
>
> Service implementors and DB modelers could then discuss when and why a given modeling was too poor/inappropriate for a given usage.
>
> I still think such kind of tools are a good common ground for both sides.
>
> So my current thought is this:
> May be, the DBPedia community could start developping data services on top of DBPedia (with Callibacus, Datao or whatever), just to eat their own dogfood. I think that, eventually, that will create a workflow where you go from a service idea to the ontology details to the Wikipedia extractor to the various problems that appear to discussions on improvements. And so on...
>
> This initiative could then be promoted to external service implementors, to create a community.
>
>
> [1]: So the graphical query "Person Details" (cf the attached 1_Person_Details.jpg) would become a REST service like this:
>
> http://mywebsite/Person_Details?person=http://dbpedia.org/resource/Bill_Gates <http://mywebsite/Person_Details?person=http://dbpedia.org/resource/Bill_Gates>
> http://mywebsite/Person_Details?birthPlace=http://dbpedia.org/resource/Toulouse <http://mywebsite/Person_Details?birthPlace=http://dbpedia.org/resource/Toulouse>
>
> <1_PersonDetails.jpg><Mail Attachment.jpeg>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
Markus Freudenberg
2017-07-12 09:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Adding to Ricardos two cent:

My opinion always was to leave the current ontology and its development as
is, while exploring the possibility to extract against a second (upper?)
ontology as well.
Basically creating two datasets.

Best,

Markus Freudenberg

Release Manager, DBpedia <http://wiki.dbpedia.org>

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Ricardo Usbeck <
***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> thanks for the interesting discussion about the (re-)modelling of the
> ontology. Also the idea of Oliver is very interesting in terms of
> decoupling.
>
> My two cents are: First, many applications and approaches are written so
> they work with what is present now. If you change too much in how DBpedia
> is structured, I see many applications breaking when they update to a newer
> version of DBpedia. This is what our research group already saw in the last
> releases. Minor changes, big effects.
>
> Second, the community has created the current state of DBpedia. So it
> would be interesting to see, how large the percentage of people is that
> actually like the current structure (i.e. are not discussing a change
> here)? And how many just want a better editing option?
>
> Best regards
> Ricardo
>
> On 11. Jul 2017, at 19:53, Olivier Rossel <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Here is my quite off-topic opinion as the maintainer of Datao.net and
> search.datao.net.
> (== expect very biased opinions :)
>
> There is a gap to bridge between the data modelers and the service
> implementors.
> A feedback loop. A community. Something in common...
>
> Inside a J2EE project, the shared point between service implementors and
> DB data modelers is the DAO layer. (I see that as the query repository of
> an application, but some disagree with my definition.)
> Nothing like this DAO layer exists in the LinkedData (as far as I know).
> Exposing the DB publicly is seen as an end. But it is just the beginning.
> The DB modelers must stay in touch with the service implementors. There
> must be a common ground.
>
> My idea, when I developped Datao.net, was to create a tool for that.
>
> Service providers could access a SPARQL endpoint and its data model,
> quickly build DAOs on top of it, and then expose a REST service. In a few
> clicks [1].
>
> DB modelers could then use the same tool to harvest a maximum of query
> pattern on their DB model. Understand the usages. And refactor their DB
> acordingly.
>
> Service implementors and DB modelers could then discuss when and why a
> given modeling was too poor/inappropriate for a given usage.
>
> I still think such kind of tools are a good common ground for both sides.
>
> So my current thought is this:
> May be, the DBPedia community could start developping data services on top
> of DBPedia (with Callibacus, Datao or whatever), just to eat their own
> dogfood. I think that, eventually, that will create a workflow where you go
> from a service idea to the ontology details to the Wikipedia extractor to
> the various problems that appear to discussions on improvements. And so
> on...
>
> This initiative could then be promoted to external service implementors,
> to create a community.
>
>
> [1]: So the graphical query "Person Details" (cf the attached
> 1_Person_Details.jpg) would become a REST service like this:
>
> http://mywebsite/Person_Details?person=http://dbpedia.org/
> resource/Bill_Gates
> http://mywebsite/Person_Details?birthPlace=http://dbpedia.
> org/resource/Toulouse
>
> <1_PersonDetails.jpg><Mail Attachment.jpeg>--------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot______
> _________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
>
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-14 17:34:33 UTC
Permalink
On 07/06/2017 11:56 AM, Sebastian Samaruga wrote:
> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect to
> the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common. Example: a
> Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and 'name'
> properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of Person plus
> 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass would have a
> superset of the properties of a subclass.
>
> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
> Sebastian.


It is always possible to replace classes by properties. For each class set up
a boolean property that signals membership in the class. This is not a good
idea in all cases, though.

It is sometimes possible to replace classes by commonalities in other data.
For example, person born in the seventeenth century can be those people whose
birthdate is in the seventeenth century. This does depend on the other data
being complete in some sense. Sometimes, however, this is not possible. What
makes an animal a person, for example? From here we get the notion of natural
kinds.

So maybe artist can be replaced by those people who have created some artwork,
except that then I want to claim that some person is an artist without
providing the artwork. Maybe I can make this claim (exists produced artwork
in OWL, for example) but maybe the underlying representation language can't
state it (primeness of numbers for example).

By the way, superclasses would have a subset of the properties of their
subclasses, not a superset.

Peter F. Patel-Schneider
Nuance Communications
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-15 15:04:56 UTC
Permalink
On 07/15/2017 12:09 AM, Jeff Thompson wrote:
>> It is always possible to replace classes by properties.
>
> The mechanism in an ontology for filtering out nonsense is disjointness and
> you need classes for disjointness. For example, the ontology should entail
> that the City class and Government class are disjoint. if an item "Berlin" is
> both an instance of City and Government, then it is nonsense because the item
> is conflating two different senses of Berlin. (Or, equivalently, Berlin has
> two properties whose domains are disjoint classes.)

Even this doesn't need classes (or at least not named classes with explicit
instance links). Classes can be replaced by boolean properties. Disjointness
between classes can be replaced by property exclusions, e.g., no object can
have value true for both cityness and governmenthood.

Whether this is good modelling practice is a separate matter.

> The DBpedia community and ultimately the DBpedia organizers need to make a
> fundamental decision: Is DBpedia going to filter out nonsense (or just provide
> searchable database of collected nonsense)? If DBpedia is going to filter out
> nonsense, then it needs disjoint classes.

I wouldn't put this so bluntly. As well, this is not a simple boolean choice.

DBpedia can go multiple ways. The current way appears to be along the lines
of accepting information from Wikipedia even when this information doesn't fit
into the DBpedia ontology, e.g., the Green Bay Packers home city is Lambeau
Field, plus adding its own infelicities, e.g., monasteries are buildings. A
different way to go would be ensure that there are no internal contradictions
in DBpedia at all. A middle ground might be just to ensure that the DBpedia
ontology matches Wikipedia.

The current DBpedia is not nonsense. The density of errors is quite low. I
would certainly like for there to be fewer errors in DBpedia and, in
particular, that Wikipedia infelicities that are identified by using DBpedia
are fixed in Wikipedia.

> - Jeff

peter




>
> On 2017/07/14 19:34, Peter F. Patel-Schneider wrote:
>>
>> On 07/06/2017 11:56 AM, Sebastian Samaruga wrote:
>>> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect to
>>> the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common. Example: a
>>> Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and 'name'
>>> properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of Person plus
>>> 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass would have a
>>> superset of the properties of a subclass.
>>>
>>> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
>>> Sebastian.
>>
>> It is always possible to replace classes by properties. For each class set up
>> a boolean property that signals membership in the class. This is not a good
>> idea in all cases, though.
>>
>> It is sometimes possible to replace classes by commonalities in other data.
>> For example, person born in the seventeenth century can be those people whose
>> birthdate is in the seventeenth century. This does depend on the other data
>> being complete in some sense. Sometimes, however, this is not possible. What
>> makes an animal a person, for example? From here we get the notion of natural
>> kinds.
>>
>> So maybe artist can be replaced by those people who have created some artwork,
>> except that then I want to claim that some person is an artist without
>> providing the artwork. Maybe I can make this claim (exists produced artwork
>> in OWL, for example) but maybe the underlying representation language can't
>> state it (primeness of numbers for example).
>>
>> By the way, superclasses would have a subset of the properties of their
>> subclasses, not a superset.
>>
>> Peter F. Patel-Schneider
>> Nuance Communications
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>
Kingsley Idehen
2017-07-06 20:48:13 UTC
Permalink
On 7/6/17 11:02 AM, Paul Houle wrote:
> I would disagree.
>
> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
> reasoning.

That's a bit of an over generalization, don't you think? Here's a
simple ontology exploration example via the following steps:

1. Goto http://dbpedia.org/fct/
2. Type in http://schema.org/Person .

At this juncture you have all instances of schema:Person class as per
the document at:
http://dbpedia.org/describe/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2FPerson&urilookup=1

Jump to the last page i.e., goto:
http://dbpedia.org/describe/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fschema.org%2FPerson&distinct=1&p=1&lp=12434&op=-1&last=&gp=1

In a nutshell, there are some ontological (tbox) relations in place
(e.g., owl:equivalentClass, rdfs:subClassOf etc..) that are useful for
reasoning and inference.


Kingsley



>
> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic
> web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second.
> Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not
> to replicate or even closely describe the performance or rules of the
> game, but to go after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy
> to ontologize."
>
> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
> conventional application development and introductory computer
> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
> tree.
>
> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
> are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
> appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data
> from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not
> different at all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning
> over data collected by a large organization".
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net <mailto:***@verizon.net>>
> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>; "'semantic-web at W3C'"
> <semantic-***@w3c.org <mailto:semantic-***@w3c.org>>; "'public-lod'"
> <public-***@w3.org <mailto:public-***@w3.org>>; "'DBpedia'"
> <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> <mailto:Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>
> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
>> just took a look at the ontology represented in
>> (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings..nt
>> <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt>) as
>> referenced in the email below.
>>
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
>> were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea
>> of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>>
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
>> Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma,
>> Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
>> ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
>> BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that
>> the DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure
>> of the ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new
>> editor. A working group needs to be established to go back to the
>> drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It
>> certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Flynn
>>
>> http://semanticsimulations.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de
>> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>> *To:* 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>> *Subject:* [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> DBpedia
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
>> (http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started
>> to collect requirements/tools here:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>>
>> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
>> GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
>> only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>>
>> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology
>> and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we
>> provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
>> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
>> '\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
>> <http://schema.org/%7Chttp:/www.wikidata.org/%7Chttp:/www..ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
>> > dbo_no_mappings.nt
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke
>> any axioms...)
>>
>> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
>> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
>> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1]
>> or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/ .
>>
>> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
>> Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first
>> Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We
>> will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in
>> Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
>> http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>> --
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian Hellmann
>>
>> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
>> Competence Center
>> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>> http://linguistics..okfn.org <http://linguistics.okfn.org>,
>> https://www.w3..org/community/ld4lt <http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
>> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> Research Group: http://aksw.org
>>

--
Regards,

Kingsley Idehen
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com)

Weblogs (Blogs):
Legacy Blog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com
Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen

Profile Pages:
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen

Web Identities (WebID):
Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
: http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
Paul Houle
2017-07-10 13:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Marcelo,

classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble by
taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be organized some
particular way.

People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree about
properties, for instance, this famous film critic

http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art

thinks that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)

is art and that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)

is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
"creative" works.

"Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of bad
ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some cases
this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the case of
recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have elaborate
faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model of Anatomy)
it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property used for very
different purposes such as defining what kind of organ the kidney is but
also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins that fan out from the
heart.

It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and see
that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries is not
true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even if
they are frequently called veins.

Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy and
that distorts the properties in place so there is not a consistent set
of properties that would let you follow a blood vessel from the heart,
to the digestive system, through the portal system, and ultimately
back to the heart. You get bad properties because of a bad
classification.

At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is a
dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it when
they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for people,
it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes your OWL
reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is a simple
problem (or that would be a simple problem if you formulated it
correctly.)



------ Original Message ------
From: ***@petrobras.com.br
To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn"
<***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

>Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
>subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
>defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may
>be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a
>birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that,
>there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and such
>individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words, the
>domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to all
>living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
>'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large debate
>regarding birth and conception -- when is the
>gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an
>era or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property
>birthDate can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of
>the property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it
>is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate SHOULD
>be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals. Property and
>domain definitions are part of the ontology definition, and a lot of
>them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's ontology. For
>example, the property date has a correct range of xsd:date, but the
>domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means anything may have a date.
>That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain should be an event, not
>owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly a event in the proper
>time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia Event is not puntcual, but
>durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take days, and a SpaceMission may take
>years. As I said before, it is not easy to get everything right. It
>takes a lot of effort.
>
>An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
>ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
>definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
>properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
>feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
>Plato’s man.’
>
>Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
>automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
>rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
>check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors
>such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes because
>they have the same properties. Sometimes the distinguishing feature is
>not mapped. (You may argue that in this case you should have a single
>class MusicalGroup, but that is another discussion, about granularity
>and abstract classes.)
>
>
>Cheers.
>=============================================
>Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>PETROBRAS
>=============================================
>
>=============================================
>Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>PETROBRAS
>Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
>(TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
>user-id: bi70
>ramal: 706-7507
>
>tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
>=============================================
>dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
>postero.
>-- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
>De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
>Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
>Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod
><public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian
>Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia
><Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
><semantic-***@w3c.org>
>Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
>Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
>for DBpedia
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
>respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
>common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
>'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
>those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
>objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of a
>subclass.
>Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
>Sebastian.
>
>On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>Virtus in medium est.
>
>I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
>some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost
>no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy
>and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology)
>need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more than
>mere documentation.
>
>However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
>scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
>boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational
>ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is
>really huge.
>
>What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
>foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
>DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about
>an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a
>intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The
>ontology should reflect that, without getting in details about how
>software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these details are
>important only to applications dealing with the concept of software,
>and not for DBpedia itself.
>
>A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
>subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very
>hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such
>refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
>refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
>avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
>Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should also
>avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead to stuff
>like partition completeness and other stuff which are clearly not
>needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>
>But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make
>much sense.
>
>Cheers.
>=============================================
>Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>Petrobras, Brazil
>=============================================
>
>
>
>
>
>De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian
>Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at
>W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>,
>'DBpedia' <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
>Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
>for DBpedia
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>I would disagree.
>
>The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
>reasoning.
>
>What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
>that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic
>web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second.
>Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to
>replicate or even closely describe the performance or rules of the
>game, but to go after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy
>to ontologize."
>
>There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
>conventional application development and introductory computer science,
> the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants
>required for a particular algorithm. Practically that means that you
>might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry
>Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better represented than J.
>Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you would probably find that
>the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a tree.
>
>If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
>are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
>appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data
>from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not
>different at all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning
>over data collected by a large organization".
>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
>To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
>"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'"
><public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'"
><Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>DBpedia
>
>I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
>took a look at the ontology represented in
>(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
>referenced in the email below.
>I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
>were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of
>the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
>Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award,
>Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
>ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
>BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the
>DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the
>ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A
>working group needs to be established to go back to the drawing board
>and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly
>doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>
>John Flynn
>http://semanticsimulations.com <http://semanticsimulations.com/>
>
>
>From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>DBpedia
>
>Dear all,
>
>we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
>(http://mappings.dbpedia.org <http://mappings.dbpedia.org/>) to another
>ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools here:
>
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>
>We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
>GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
>only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
>Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
>push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide
>a core version for demo purposes created with:
>rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
>'\(http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
><http://schema.org/%7Chttp:/www.wikidata.org/%7Chttp:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
> > dbo_no_mappings.nt
>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
>axioms...)
>
>We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
>make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
>and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
>https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>
>This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
>Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday
>per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also
>discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam,
>co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
>http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>
>Thank you for your help!
>
>[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>
>--
>All the best,
>Sebastian Hellmann
>
>Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
>Competence Center
>at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>Projects: http://dbpedia.org <http://dbpedia.org/>, http://nlp2rdf.org
><http://nlp2rdf.org/>, http://linguistics.okfn.org
><http://linguistics.okfn.org/>, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
><http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
>Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>Research Group: http://aksw.org
><http://aksw.org/>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
>"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
>"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
>Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución
>o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
>Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
>civil y penal."
>
>
>
>
>
>"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
>"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
>"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
>Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución
>o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
>Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
>civil y penal."
>
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-10 16:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,

I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational ontology
would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it would be hard,
if not impossible, to get every single aspect right. However, a totally
property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed, would not really need an
OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data model is quite suitable to
representing it.

I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic reasoning,
it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning, it has to be
sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to guarantee the
reasoners can do their work.

I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of the
biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name. You just
rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.

I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person. This is
a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of people do it
because they have worked their whole life with ER diagrams, and most of
the time that led to relational bases that worked fine. But conceptually,
this leads to a lot of problems, since a Person is a kind, i.e., it has an
identifier that distinguishes every instance from one another. And a
Person who is both a Painter and a Boxer would have two IDs, it would be
two persons simmultaneously (this is not like multiple inheritance, OWL is
not C++). And worst, if a Skater injuries it self and stop being a skater,
it ceases also to be a Person, which is not what the ontology is suposed
to represent. If you simply ignore these problems you will end up with
inconsistent ontologies which will lead to bad inference. You can make a
simple model, but not too much, otherwise it does not represent what it
should.

Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and that
works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the owl:subClass
gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of PART-OF relation.
In other points, such as the case with Document/File and Document/Image
(but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot the distinction between the
piece of work (a novel, a law) and the media that supports it (a file, a
physical book, a rock). Putting File as a subclass of Document is a big,
big mistake. This things must be corrected to improve the quality of the
ontology and make it more useful.

I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you have to
apply some definitions, and those should work together. When a ontology is
built with definitions made by several people, you have to make sure they
do not collide, even if they are simple. Sometimes the correction is also
simple: move the Person subtree to a PersonOccupation subtree and
everything will make sense. This would help people work directly with more
DBpedia classes instead of making extensive remapping inside their
applications.


Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
ramal: 706-7507

tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
=============================================
dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
postero.
-- Horatius





De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga"
<***@gmail.com>
Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, "Sebastian
Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John Flynn"
<***@verizon.net>
Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



Marcelo,

classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble by
taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be organized some
particular way.

People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree about
properties, for instance, this famous film critic

http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art

thinks that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)

is art and that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)

is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
"creative" works.

"Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of bad
ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well organized"
classification tiles everything into a tree. In some cases this is driven
by the linearization of the tree (as in the case of recent versions of the
Dewey Decimal system which have elaborate faceting in some areas) in other
cases (Foundational Model of Anatomy) it is a preference (which leaves the
"is a" property used for very different purposes such as defining what
kind of organ the kidney is but also defining the hierarchy of arteries
and veins that fan out from the heart.

It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and see
that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries is not
true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even if
they are frequently called veins.

Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy and
that distorts the properties in place so there is not a consistent set of
properties that would let you follow a blood vessel from the heart, to
the digestive system, through the portal system, and ultimately back to
the heart. You get bad properties because of a bad classification.

At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is a
dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it when
they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for people, it
causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes your OWL reasoner to
run for a few hours to solve what you think is a simple problem (or that
would be a simple problem if you formulated it correctly.)



------ Original Message ------
From: ***@petrobras.com.br
To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn" <
***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may be
true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a birthDate,
but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that, there are other
things such as Lion that have birthDates and such individuals do not
belong to the class Person. In other words, the domain of birthDate is not
Persons. Neither is it applicable to all living beings: what part of a
Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in
humans there is a large debate regarding birth and conception -- when is
the gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of
an era or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property
birthDate can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it is a
subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate SHOULD be
applicable only to persons, and not to other animals. Property and domain
definitions are part of the ontology definition, and a lot of them are
lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's ontology. For example, the
property date has a correct range of xsd:date, but the domain is defined
as owl:Thing, which means anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally
wrong: the domain should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is
not exactly a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the
dbPedia Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not easy
to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.

An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
Plato’s man.’

Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by automata
that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot rely just on
that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to check if the result
makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors such as infering that
Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes because they have the same
properties. Sometimes the distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may
argue that in this case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but
that is another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)


Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
=============================================

=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
user-id: bi70
ramal: 706-7507

tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
=============================================
dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
postero.
-- Horatius





De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Hellmann
<***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <
Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C <
semantic-***@w3c.org>
Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in respect
to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in common.
Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace', 'birthDate' and
'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have those properties of
Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks objects. So a superclass
would have a superset of the properties of a subclass.
Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
Sebastian.
On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
Virtus in medium est.

I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost no
relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy and
other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology) need to
be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more than mere
documentation.

However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational ontology
and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is really huge.


What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years about an
exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a intelectual
product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The ontology should
reflect that, without getting in details about how software is encoded,
versioned, reified etc., since these details are important only to
applications dealing with the concept of software, and not for DBpedia
itself.

A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a subconcept
of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is very hard do
disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such refactoring is
needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further refining, such as
creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be avoided in the name of
keeping the ontology simple and generic. Upper-level classes are needed to
sort things out, but one should also avoid defining things like
disjointness because it would lead to stuff like partition completeness
and other stuff which are clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.

But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make much
sense.

Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
Petrobras, Brazil
=============================================





De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <
***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
for DBpedia



I would disagree.

The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
reasoning.

What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data that
exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic web",
the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second. Think of
it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not to replicate
or even closely describe the performance or rules of the game, but to go
after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."

There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of conventional
application development and introductory computer science, the data is
not always factually correct or satisfies the invariants required for a
particular algorithm. Practically that means that you might ask for "US
States" and get 48 or 51, that somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson
has their career much better represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric
S. Thompson, and you would probably find that the "tree of life" in
DBpedia is not really a tree.

If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you are
willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data from
DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not different at
all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning over data
collected by a large organization".



------ Original Message ------
From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
"'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia

I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I just
took a look at the ontology represented in (
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as
referenced in the email below.
I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the top-down
class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that were listed
as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of the
organization of the DBpedia class structure.
To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the DBpedia
classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media, Work,
Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award, Agent,
PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram,
Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after
this small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to worry
a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather than focusing
on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be established to go
back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top
down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.

John Flynn
http://semanticsimulations.com


From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

Dear all,
we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org) to another ontology editor and started to
collect requirements/tools here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our GSoC
student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably only
consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide a
core version for demo purposes created with:
rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(
http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\
)' > dbo_no_mappings.nt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
(I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
axioms...)

We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community would
make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the Google Doc
and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1] or on slack
https://dbpedia.slack.com/.

This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia Dev
online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first Wednesday per
month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We will also discuss
the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in Amsterdam, co-located
with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017

Thank you for your help!

[1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
DBpedia-discussion mailing list
DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion





"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."



"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."



"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
civil y penal."



"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."



"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."



"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin
la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido por Marcelo Jaccoud
Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]



"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
Sebastian Hellmann
2017-07-11 22:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should see
the whole thing as an "information machine". From this perspective the
purpose of the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:

- Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users want
to retrieve?

- Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
other ontologies allows to export information into other schemas without
much ontological committment

- Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
person was to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We are
at around 60% right now. Another goal would be to validate the
correctness by cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National Library.
So the ontology should directly produce a system that can help us track
what data is missing. SHACL provides us with a new modeling paradigm and
we will make a call for SHACL specs of DBpedia applications to get
concrete input for DBpedia's ontology. We are still discussing
internally where to keep them. GitHub seems like a good option.

- minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top classes
should provide enough structure to build a consistent system. There are
many extra ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc. that can all be sorted
under these then. We might even resort (please don't see it as a threat)
to SKOS maybe for roles or build a separate vocabularies, that can be
used as mixins, i.e. <Peter> a dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . #
dbo:Actor as instance. This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing
the Wikipedia Article. Given that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its
article types, we can help with building a structure that distinguishes
between Individual articles, i.e. Barrack Obama and Categorial /
Role-type articles, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor . Such
information can be taken from text, which is why we are building up
http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext

By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing
subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.

Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
spouse being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
perspective, if functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this
might be something we can live with. Proper documentation of these
pitfalls can be given.

All the best,
Sebastian


On 10.07.2017 18:24, ***@petrobras.com.br wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational
> ontology would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it
> would be hard, if not impossible, to get every single aspect right.
> However, a totally property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed,
> would not really need an OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data
> model is quite suitable to representing it.
>
> I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic
> reasoning, it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning, it
> has to be sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to
> guarantee the reasoners can do their work.
>
> I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of the
> biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name. You
> just rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.
>
> I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
> sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person. This
> is a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of people
> do it because they have worked their whole life with ER diagrams, and
> most of the time that led to relational bases that worked fine. But
> conceptually, this leads to a lot of problems, since a Person is a
> kind, i.e., it has an identifier that distinguishes every instance
> from one another. And a Person who is both a Painter and a Boxer would
> have two IDs, it would be two persons simmultaneously (this is not
> like multiple inheritance, OWL is not C++). And worst, if a Skater
> injuries it self and stop being a skater, it ceases also to be a
> Person, which is not what the ontology is suposed to represent. If you
> simply ignore these problems you will end up with inconsistent
> ontologies which will lead to bad inference. You can make a simple
> model, but not too much, otherwise it does not represent what it should.
>
> Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and
> that works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the
> owl:subClass gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of
> PART-OF relation. In other points, such as the case with Document/File
> and Document/Image (but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot the
> distinction between the piece of work (a novel, a law) and the media
> that supports it (a file, a physical book, a rock). Putting File as a
> subclass of Document is a big, big mistake. This things must be
> corrected to improve the quality of the ontology and make it more useful.
>
> I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you have
> to apply some definitions, and those should work together. When a
> ontology is built with definitions made by several people, you have to
> make sure they do not collide, even if they are simple. Sometimes the
> correction is also simple: move the Person subtree to a
> PersonOccupation subtree and everything will make sense. This would
> help people work directly with more DBpedia classes instead of making
> extensive remapping inside their applications.
>
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> ramal: 706-7507
>
> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> =============================================
> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
> postero.
> -- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, "Sebastian
> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John Flynn"
> <***@verizon.net>
> Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
> Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos
> for DBpedia
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Marcelo,
>
> classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble by
> taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be organized
> some particular way.
>
> People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree
> about properties, for instance, this famous film critic
>
> _http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art_
>
> thinks that
>
> _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)_
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_%28film%29>
>
> is art and that
>
> _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)_
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_%282002_video_game%29>
>
> is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
> probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
> "creative" works.
>
> "Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of bad
> ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
> organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some cases
> this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the case of
> recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have elaborate
> faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model of Anatomy)
> it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property used for very
> different purposes such as defining what kind of organ the kidney is
> but also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins that fan out
> from the heart.
>
> It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and
> see that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries
> is not true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
> intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
> hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even if
> they are frequently called veins.
>
> Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy
> and that distorts the properties in place so there is not a consistent
> set of properties that would let you follow a blood vessel from the
> heart, to the digestive system, through the portal system, and
> ultimately back to the heart. You get bad properties because of a bad
> classification.
>
> At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is a
> dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it when
> they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
> rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for people,
> it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes your OWL
> reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is a simple
> problem (or that would be a simple problem if you formulated it
> correctly.)
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: ***@petrobras.com.br_ <mailto:***@petrobras.com.br>
> To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com_
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>>
> Cc: "DBpedia" <_Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
> <mailto:Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>; "Sebastian
> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de_
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>; "John Flynn"
> <***@verizon.net_ <mailto:***@verizon.net>>; "Paul Houle"
> <***@ontology2.com_ <mailto:***@ontology2.com>>
> Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
>
> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of the
> subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can only be
> defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it. This may
> be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person has a
> birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on that,
> there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and such
> individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words, the
> domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to all
> living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
> 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large debate
> regarding birth and conception -- when is the
> gamete-ovum-embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of
> an era or the birth of a project? The domain to which the property
> birthDate can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of
> the property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and
> it is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate
> SHOULD be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals.
> Property and domain definitions are part of the ontology definition,
> and a lot of them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's
> ontology. For example, the property date has a correct range of
> xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means anything
> may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain should be an
> event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly a event in the
> proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia Event is not
> puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take days, and a
> SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not easy to get
> everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
>
> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is
> Plato’s man.’
>
> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
> automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
> rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
> check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making errors
> such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent classes
> because they have the same properties. Sometimes the distinguishing
> feature is not mapped. (You may argue that in this case you should
> have a single class MusicalGroup, but that is another discussion,
> about granularity and abstract classes.)
>
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> =============================================
>
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> user-id: bi70
> ramal: 706-7507
>
> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> =============================================
> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
> postero.
> -- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com_ <mailto:***@gmail.com>>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br_ <mailto:***@petrobras.com.br>
> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com_
> <mailto:***@ontology2.com>>, public-lod <_public-***@w3.org_
> <mailto:public-***@w3.org>>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net_
> <mailto:***@verizon.net>>, Sebastian Hellmann
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de_
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>, DBpedia
> <_Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
> <mailto:Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>, semantic-web at
> W3C <_semantic-***@w3c.org_ <mailto:semantic-***@w3c.org>>
> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
> respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
> common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
> 'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
> those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
> objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of a
> subclass.
> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
> Sebastian.
>
> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br_
> <mailto:***@petrobras.com.br>> wrote:
> Virtus in medium est.
>
> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and needs
> some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with almost
> no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept hierarchy
> and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the ontology)
> need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to something more
> than mere documentation.
>
> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider the
> scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no scope
> boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable foundational
> ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not quoting Trump, it is
> really huge.
>
> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to any
> foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would hurt
> DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight years
> about an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree it is a
> intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater play. The
> ontology should reflect that, without getting in details about how
> software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these details are
> important only to applications dealing with the concept of software,
> and not for DBpedia itself.
>
> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
> subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is
> very hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where such
> refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
> refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
> avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
> Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should also
> avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead to stuff
> like partition completeness and other stuff which are clearly not
> needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>
> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't make
> much sense./
>
> Cheers./
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> Petrobras, Brazil
> =============================================
>
>
>
>
>
> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com_
> <mailto:***@ontology2.com>>
> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net_
> <mailto:***@verizon.net>>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'"
> <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de_
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>, "'semantic-web at W3C'"
> <_semantic-***@w3c.org_ <mailto:semantic-***@w3c.org>>, 'public-lod'
> <_public-***@w3.org_ <mailto:public-***@w3.org>>, 'DBpedia'
> <_Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
> <mailto:Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>
> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> I would disagree.
>
> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
> reasoning.
>
> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood "semantic
> web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then classes second.
> Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards; the point is not
> to replicate or even closely describe the performance or rules of the
> game, but to go after the long hanging fruit of "things that are easy
> to ontologize."
>
> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
> conventional application development and introductory computer
> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
> tree.
>
> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area you
> are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data structures
> appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly incorporate data
> from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is necessary. That's not
> different at all from the situation of "doing reasoning over reasoning
> over data collected by a large organization".
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net_ <mailto:***@verizon.net>>
> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de_
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>>; "'semantic-web at W3C'"
> <_semantic-***@w3c.org_ <mailto:semantic-***@w3c.org>>; "'public-lod'"
> <_public-***@w3.org_ <mailto:public-***@w3.org>>; "'DBpedia'"
> <_Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
> <mailto:Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>>
> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> DBpedia
>
> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
> just took a look at the ontology represented in
> (_https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt_) as
> referenced in the email below.
> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes that
> were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general idea of
> the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food, Media,
> Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic, Diploma, Award,
> Agent, PublicService, Disease, GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita,
> ElectionDiagram, Demographics, Relationship, Medicine, List,
> BioMolecule. I gave up after this small sample. It is obvious that the
> DBpedia community needs to worry a lot more about the structure of the
> ontology itself rather than focusing on selecting a new editor. A
> working group needs to be established to go back to the drawing board
> and look at the DBpedia ontology form the top down. It certainly
> doesn't make much sense as it is currently structured.
>
> John Flynn_
> __http://semanticsimulations.com_ <http://semanticsimulations.com/>
>
> *
> From:* Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de_
> <mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>] *
> Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM*
> To:* 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia*
> Subject:* [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
> Dear all,
>
> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
> (_http://mappings.dbpedia.org_ <http://mappings.dbpedia.org/>) to
> another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools here:
>
> _https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit_
>
> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez, our
> GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will probably
> only consider editors with a running demo, so the community can try it.
> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology and
> push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we provide
> a core version for demo purposes created with:
> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v
> '\(_http://schema.org\|http://www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\_
> <http://schema.org/%7Chttp:/www.wikidata.org/%7Chttp:/www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/>)'
> > dbo_no_mappings.nt_
>
> __https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt_
> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke any
> axioms...)
>
> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list[1]
> or on slack _https://dbpedia.slack.com/_.
>
> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next DBpedia
> Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each first
> Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also welcome. We
> will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia meeting in
> Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9.
> _http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017_
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> [1] _https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion_
>
> --
> All the best,
> Sebastian Hellmann
>
> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
> Competence Center
> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> Projects: _http://dbpedia.org_ <http://dbpedia.org/>,
> _http://nlp2rdf.org_ <http://nlp2rdf.org/>,
> _http://linguistics.okfn.org_ <http://linguistics.okfn.org/>,
> _https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt_ <http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
> Homepage: _http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann_
> Research Group: _http://aksw.org_
> <http://aksw.org/>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
> _http://sdm.link/slashdot________________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list_
> __DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
> <mailto:DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>_
> __https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion_
>
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
> Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución
> o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
> Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
> civil y penal."
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
> Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución
> o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
> Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
> civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido por Marcelo Jaccoud
> Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
> Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución
> o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema
> Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria,
> civil y penal."
>

--
All the best,
Sebastian Hellmann

Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies (KILT)
Competence Center
at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org, https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
<http://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt>
Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-11 23:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> wrote on
2017-07-11 19:10:03:
> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
brought up.

Child, Teenager and Adult come to mind, but these could also be seen as
phases of Person and would require timely updating. It's the problem we
have with roles. Possible but not practical. In the past, Man and Woman
were natural subclasses, but since we have the property dbo:sex, it is not
worth.

Since subclassing Person would mean referring to a minority, the
politically correct people would be against ANY subclass... :-)

There are some sensible subclasses, like Celebrity, but Persons which
appear on Wikipedia are all Celebrities, so this would be also useless.

I am inclined to agree with you that we could cover any situation with
proper properties (pun intended), even fictitious/non-fictitious. Which
would exclude the need for Cyborg and other strange classes with no actual
instances outside fiction.


Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral




Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> gravou em
2017-07-11 19:10:03:

> De: Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>
> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, John Flynn
> <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
> Data: 2017-07-11 19:10
> Assunto: Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: [DBpedia-
> discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
> Hi all,
> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should
> see the whole thing as an "information machine". From this
> perspective the purpose of the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users
> want to retrieve?
> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
> other ontologies allows to export information into other schemas
> without much ontological committment
> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
> person was to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We
> are at around 60% right now. Another goal would be to validate the
> correctness by cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National
> Library. So the ontology should directly produce a system that can
> help us track what data is missing. SHACL provides us with a new
> modeling paradigm and we will make a call for SHACL specs of DBpedia
> applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's ontology. We are
> still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems like a
> good option.
>
> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top
> classes should provide enough structure to build a consistent
> system. There are many extra ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc.
> that can all be sorted under these then. We might even resort
> (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe for roles or build a
> separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e. <Peter> a
> dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia
> Article. Given that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article
> types, we can help with building a structure that distinguishes
> between Individual articles, i.e. Barrack Obama and Categorial /
> Role-type articles, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor . Such
> information can be taken from text, which is why we are building up
> http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>
> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
brought up.
>
> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
> spouse being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
> perspective, if functionality is consistent for 95% of the data,
> this might be something we can live with. Proper documentation of
> these pitfalls can be given.
>
> All the best,
> Sebastian
>

> On 10.07.2017 18:24, ***@petrobras.com.br wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational
> ontology would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it
> would be hard, if not impossible, to get every single aspect right.
> However, a totally property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed,
> would not really need an OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data
> model is quite suitable to representing it.
>
> I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic
> reasoning, it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning,
> it has to be sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to
> guarantee the reasoners can do their work.
>
> I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of
> the biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name.
> You just rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.
>
> I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
> sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person.
> This is a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of
> people do it because they have worked their whole life with ER
> diagrams, and most of the time that led to relational bases that
> worked fine. But conceptually, this leads to a lot of problems,
> since a Person is a kind, i.e., it has an identifier that
> distinguishes every instance from one another. And a Person who is
> both a Painter and a Boxer would have two IDs, it would be two
> persons simmultaneously (this is not like multiple inheritance, OWL
> is not C++). And worst, if a Skater injuries it self and stop being
> a skater, it ceases also to be a Person, which is not what the
> ontology is suposed to represent. If you simply ignore these
> problems you will end up with inconsistent ontologies which will
> lead to bad inference. You can make a simple model, but not too
> much, otherwise it does not represent what it should.
>
> Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and
> that works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the
> owl:subClass gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of
> PART-OF relation. In other points, such as the case with Document/
> File and Document/Image (but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot
> the distinction between the piece of work (a novel, a law) and the
> media that supports it (a file, a physical book, a rock). Putting
> File as a subclass of Document is a big, big mistake. This things
> must be corrected to improve the quality of the ontology and make it
> more useful.
>
> I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you
> have to apply some definitions, and those should work together. When
> a ontology is built with definitions made by several people, you
> have to make sure they do not collide, even if they are simple.
> Sometimes the correction is also simple: move the Person subtree to
> a PersonOccupation subtree and everything will make sense. This
> would help people work directly with more DBpedia classes instead of
> making extensive remapping inside their applications.
>
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
(TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> ramal: 706-7507
>
> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> =============================================
> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
postero.
> -- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga"
> <***@gmail.com>
> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>,
> "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John Flynn"
> <***@verizon.net>
> Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
> Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> demos for DBpedia
>
>
>
> Marcelo,
>
> classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble
> by taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be
> organized some particular way.
>
> People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree
> about properties, for instance, this famous film critic
>
> http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art
>
> thinks that
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)
>
> is art and that
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)
>
> is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
> probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
> "creative" works.
>
> "Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of
> bad ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
> organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some
> cases this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the
> case of recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have
> elaborate faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model
> of Anatomy) it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property
> used for very different purposes such as defining what kind of organ
> the kidney is but also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins
> that fan out from the heart.
>
> It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and
> see that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries
> is not true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
> intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
> hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even
> if they are frequently called veins.
>
> Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy
> and that distorts the properties in place so there is not a
> consistent set of properties that would let you follow a blood
> vessel from the heart, to the digestive system, through the portal
> system, and ultimately back to the heart. You get bad properties
> because of a bad classification.
>
> At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is
> a dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it
> when they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
> rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for
> people, it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes
> your OWL reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is
> a simple problem (or that would be a simple problem if you
> formulated it correctly.)
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: ***@petrobras.com.br
> To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
> Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn" <
> ***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia
>
> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of
> the subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can
> only be defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it.
> This may be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person
> has a birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on
> that, there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and
> such individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words,
> the domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to
> all living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
> 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large
> debate regarding birth and conception -- when is the gamete-ovum-
> embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an era or
> the birth of a project? The domain to which the property birthDate
> can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
> property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it
> is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate
> SHOULD be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals.
> Property and domain definitions are part of the ontology definition,
> and a lot of them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's
> ontology. For example, the property date has a correct range of
> xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means
> anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain
> should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly
> a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia
> Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
> days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not
> easy to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
>
> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here
> is Plato’s man.’
>
> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
> automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
> rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
> check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making
> errors such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent
> classes because they have the same properties. Sometimes the
> distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may argue that in this
> case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but that is
> another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)
>
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> =============================================
>
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> PETROBRAS
> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
(TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> user-id: bi70
> ramal: 706-7507
>
> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> =============================================
> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
postero.
> -- Horatius
>
>
>
>
>
> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
> public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian
Hellmann <
> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-
> ***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
<semantic-***@w3c.org>
> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> demos for DBpedia
>
>
>
> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
> respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
> common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
> 'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
> those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
> objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of
> a subclass.
> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
> Sebastian.
> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
> Virtus in medium est.
>
> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and
> needs some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with
> almost no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept
> hierarchy and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the
> ontology) need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to
> something more than mere documentation.
>
> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider
> the scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no
> scope boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable
> foundational ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not
> quoting Trump, it is really huge.
>
> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to
> any foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would
> hurt DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight
> years about an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree
> it is a intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater
> play. The ontology should reflect that, without getting in details
> about how software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these
> details are important only to applications dealing with the concept
> of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
>
> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
> subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is
> very hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where
> such refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
> refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
> avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
> Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should
> also avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead
> to stuff like partition completeness and other stuff which are
> clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>
> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't
> make much sense.
>
> Cheers.
> =============================================
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> Petrobras, Brazil
> =============================================
>
>
>
>
>
> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'"
<
> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
> semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
> Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> demos for DBpedia
>
>
>
> I would disagree.
>
> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
> reasoning.
>
> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood
> "semantic web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then
> classes second. Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards;
> the point is not to replicate or even closely describe the
> performance or rules of the game, but to go after the long hanging
> fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
>
> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
> conventional application development and introductory computer
> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
tree.
>
> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area
> you are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data
> structures appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly
> incorporate data from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is
> necessary. That's not different at all from the situation of "doing
> reasoning over reasoning over data collected by a large organization".
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
> "'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
> public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'"
<Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
DBpedia
>
> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
> just took a look at the ontology represented in (https://
> dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as referenced
> in the email below.
> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes
> that were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general
> idea of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food,
> Media, Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic,
> Diploma, Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease,
> GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram, Demographics,
> Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after this
> small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to
> worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather
> than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be
> established to go back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia
> ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as
> it is currently structured.
>
> John Flynn
> http://semanticsimulations.com
>
>
> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
> Dear all,
> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki (
http://mappings.dbpedia.org
> ) to another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools
here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/
> 1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez,
> our GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will
> probably only consider editors with a running demo, so the community
> can try it.
> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology
> and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we
> provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|http://
> www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
> dbo_no_mappings.nt
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke
> any axioms...)
>
> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list
> [1] or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>
> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next
> DBpedia Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each
> first Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also
> welcome. We will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia
> meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://
> wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>
> --
> All the best,
> Sebastian Hellmann
>
> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
> (KILT) Competence Center
> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org
> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
> Research Group: http://aksw.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido
> por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>
> --
> All the best,
> Sebastian Hellmann
>
> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
> (KILT) Competence Center
> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
http://linguistics.okfn.org
> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
> Research Group: http://aksw.org[anexo "lnleobnaofjmkfjh.png"
> removido por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]

"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
Olivier Rossel
2017-07-13 05:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Once again, I will give you my opinion, as the service implementor of
search.datao.net.

search.datao.net is a lookup service where you type the label of a
resource, retrieve from an internal DB all the resources of the
LinkedData with such a label (+their type and endpoint), and then
lookup all the queries stored in Datao that can be applied upon those
resources.

The queries lookup step matches the types and endpoint of the found
resources vs the types and endpoint in the queries stored in Datao.

Simply said, I heavily rely upon the types of the resources in the
LinkedData (both when indexing in the internal DB, and during the
lookup for applicable queries).

If you change the typing in DBPedia, there are critical consequences
for my service.

As far as I understand, you want to go from ineritance to (some kind
of) composition to precisely define a given Person instance.

That sounds like an very interesting move from a conceptual level.

But practically, from my own perspective as a service implementor,
this has enormous impacts.









On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 AM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
> Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> wrote on 2017-07-11
> 19:10:03:
>> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
>> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
>> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
>> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern brought
>> up.
>
> Child, Teenager and Adult come to mind, but these could also be seen as
> phases of Person and would require timely updating. It's the problem we have
> with roles. Possible but not practical. In the past, Man and Woman were
> natural subclasses, but since we have the property dbo:sex, it is not worth.
>
> Since subclassing Person would mean referring to a minority, the politically
> correct people would be against ANY subclass... :-)
>
> There are some sensible subclasses, like Celebrity, but Persons which appear
> on Wikipedia are all Celebrities, so this would be also useless.
>
> I am inclined to agree with you that we could cover any situation with
> proper properties (pun intended), even fictitious/non-fictitious. Which
> would exclude the need for Cyborg and other strange classes with no actual
> instances outside fiction.
>
>
> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>
>
>
>
> Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> gravou em 2017-07-11
> 19:10:03:
>
>> De: Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
>> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>
>> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, John Flynn
>> <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
>> Data: 2017-07-11 19:10
>> Assunto: Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: [DBpedia-
>> discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>>
>> Hi all,
>
>> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should
>> see the whole thing as an "information machine". From this
>> perspective the purpose of the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
>> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users
>> want to retrieve?
>> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
>> other ontologies allows to export information into other schemas
>> without much ontological committment
>> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
>> person was to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We
>> are at around 60% right now. Another goal would be to validate the
>> correctness by cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National
>> Library. So the ontology should directly produce a system that can
>> help us track what data is missing. SHACL provides us with a new
>> modeling paradigm and we will make a call for SHACL specs of DBpedia
>> applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's ontology. We are
>> still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems like a
>> good option.
>>
>> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top
>> classes should provide enough structure to build a consistent
>> system. There are many extra ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc.
>> that can all be sorted under these then. We might even resort
>> (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe for roles or build a
>> separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e. <Peter> a
>> dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
>> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia
>> Article. Given that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article
>> types, we can help with building a structure that distinguishes
>> between Individual articles, i.e. Barrack Obama and Categorial /
>> Role-type articles, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor. Such
>
>> information can be taken from text, which is why we are building up
>>
> http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>
>>
>> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
>> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
>> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
>> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern brought
>> up.
>>
>> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
>> spouse being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
>> perspective, if functionality is consistent for 95% of the data,
>> this might be something we can live with. Proper documentation of
>> these pitfalls can be given.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian
>>
>
>> On 10.07.2017 18:24, ***@petrobras.com.br wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational
>> ontology would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it
>> would be hard, if not impossible, to get every single aspect right.
>> However, a totally property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed,
>> would not really need an OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data
>> model is quite suitable to representing it.
>>
>> I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic
>> reasoning, it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning,
>> it has to be sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to
>> guarantee the reasoners can do their work.
>>
>> I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of
>> the biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name.
>> You just rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.
>>
>> I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
>> sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person.
>> This is a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of
>> people do it because they have worked their whole life with ER
>> diagrams, and most of the time that led to relational bases that
>> worked fine. But conceptually, this leads to a lot of problems,
>> since a Person is a kind, i.e., it has an identifier that
>> distinguishes every instance from one another. And a Person who is
>> both a Painter and a Boxer would have two IDs, it would be two
>> persons simmultaneously (this is not like multiple inheritance, OWL
>> is not C++). And worst, if a Skater injuries it self and stop being
>> a skater, it ceases also to be a Person, which is not what the
>> ontology is suposed to represent. If you simply ignore these
>> problems you will end up with inconsistent ontologies which will
>> lead to bad inference. You can make a simple model, but not too
>> much, otherwise it does not represent what it should.
>>
>> Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and
>> that works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the
>> owl:subClass gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of
>> PART-OF relation. In other points, such as the case with Document/
>> File and Document/Image (but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot
>> the distinction between the piece of work (a novel, a law) and the
>> media that supports it (a file, a physical book, a rock). Putting
>> File as a subclass of Document is a big, big mistake. This things
>> must be corrected to improve the quality of the ontology and make it
>> more useful.
>>
>> I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you
>> have to apply some definitions, and those should work together. When
>> a ontology is built with definitions made by several people, you
>> have to make sure they do not collide, even if they are simple.
>> Sometimes the correction is also simple: move the Person subtree to
>> a PersonOccupation subtree and everything will make sense. This
>> would help people work directly with more DBpedia classes instead of
>> making extensive remapping inside their applications.
>>
>>
>> Cheers.
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> PETROBRAS
>> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
>> ramal: 706-7507
>>
>> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
>> =============================================
>> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
>> postero.
>> -- Horatius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga"
>> <***@gmail.com>
>> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>,
>> "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John Flynn"
>> <***@verizon.net>
>> Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
>> Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> demos for DBpedia
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcelo,
>>
>> classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble
>> by taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be
>> organized some particular way.
>>
>> People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree
>> about properties, for instance, this famous film critic
>>
>>
> http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art
>
>>
>> thinks that
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)
>>
>> is art and that
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)
>
>>
>> is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
>> probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
>> "creative" works.
>>
>> "Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of
>> bad ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
>> organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some
>> cases this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the
>> case of recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have
>> elaborate faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model
>> of Anatomy) it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property
>> used for very different purposes such as defining what kind of organ
>> the kidney is but also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins
>> that fan out from the heart.
>>
>> It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and
>> see that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries
>> is not true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
>> intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
>> hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even
>> if they are frequently called veins.
>>
>> Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy
>> and that distorts the properties in place so there is not a
>> consistent set of properties that would let you follow a blood
>> vessel from the heart, to the digestive system, through the portal
>> system, and ultimately back to the heart. You get bad properties
>> because of a bad classification.
>>
>> At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is
>> a dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it
>> when they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
>> rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for
>> people, it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes
>> your OWL reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is
>> a simple problem (or that would be a simple problem if you
>> formulated it correctly.)
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: ***@petrobras.com.br
>> To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
>> Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
>> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn" <
>> ***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> DBpedia
>>
>> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of
>> the subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can
>> only be defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it.
>> This may be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person
>> has a birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on
>> that, there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and
>> such individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words,
>> the domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to
>> all living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
>> 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large
>> debate regarding birth and conception -- when is the gamete-ovum-
>> embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an era or
>> the birth of a project? The domain to which the property birthDate
>> can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
>> property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it
>> is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate
>> SHOULD be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals.
>> Property and domain definitions are part of the ontology definition,
>> and a lot of them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's
>> ontology. For example, the property date has a correct range of
>> xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means
>> anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain
>> should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly
>> a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia
>> Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
>> days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not
>> easy to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
>>
>> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
>> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
>> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
>> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
>> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here
>> is Plato’s man.’
>>
>> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
>> automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
>> rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
>> check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making
>> errors such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent
>> classes because they have the same properties. Sometimes the
>> distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may argue that in this
>> case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but that is
>> another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)
>>
>>
>> Cheers.
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> PETROBRAS
>> =============================================
>>
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> PETROBRAS
>> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
>> user-id: bi70
>> ramal: 706-7507
>>
>> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
>> =============================================
>> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
>> postero.
>> -- Horatius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
>> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
>> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
>> public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Hellmann
>> <
>> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-
>> ***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
>> <semantic-***@w3c.org>
>> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
>> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> demos for DBpedia
>>
>>
>>
>> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
>> respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
>> common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
>> 'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
>> those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
>> objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of
>> a subclass.
>> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
>> Sebastian.
>
>> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>> Virtus in medium est.
>>
>> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and
>> needs some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with
>> almost no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept
>> hierarchy and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the
>> ontology) need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to
>> something more than mere documentation.
>>
>> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider
>> the scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no
>> scope boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable
>> foundational ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not
>> quoting Trump, it is really huge.
>>
>> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to
>> any foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would
>> hurt DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight
>> years about an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree
>> it is a intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater
>> play. The ontology should reflect that, without getting in details
>> about how software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these
>> details are important only to applications dealing with the concept
>> of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
>>
>> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
>> subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is
>> very hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where
>> such refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
>> refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
>> avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
>> Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should
>> also avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead
>> to stuff like partition completeness and other stuff which are
>> clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>>
>> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't
>> make much sense.
>>
>> Cheers.
>> =============================================
>> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> Petrobras, Brazil
>> =============================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <
>> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
>> semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
>> Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
>> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> demos for DBpedia
>>
>>
>>
>> I would disagree.
>>
>> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
>> reasoning.
>>
>> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
>> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood
>> "semantic web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then
>> classes second. Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards;
>> the point is not to replicate or even closely describe the
>> performance or rules of the game, but to go after the long hanging
>> fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
>>
>> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
>> conventional application development and introductory computer
>> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
>> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
>> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
>> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
>> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
>> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
>> tree.
>>
>> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area
>> you are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data
>> structures appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly
>> incorporate data from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is
>> necessary. That's not different at all from the situation of "doing
>> reasoning over reasoning over data collected by a large organization".
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
>> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
>> "'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
>> public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> DBpedia
>>
>> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
>> just took a look at the ontology represented in (https://
>> dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as referenced
>> in the email below.
>> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes
>> that were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general
>> idea of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food,
>> Media, Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic,
>> Diploma, Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease,
>> GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram, Demographics,
>> Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after this
>> small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to
>> worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather
>> than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be
>> established to go back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia
>> ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as
>> it is currently structured.
>>
>> John Flynn
>>
> http://semanticsimulations.com
>
>>
>>
>> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>>
>> Dear all,
>> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
>> (http://mappings.dbpedia.org
>> ) to another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools
>> here:
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/
>> 1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez,
>> our GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will
>> probably only consider editors with a running demo, so the community
>> can try it.
>> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology
>> and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we
>> provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
>> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|http://
>> www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
>> dbo_no_mappings.nt
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke
>> any axioms...)
>>
>> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
>> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
>> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list
>> [1] or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>>
>> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next
>> DBpedia Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each
>> first Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also
>> welcome. We will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia
>> meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://
>> wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>>
>> Thank you for your help!
>>
>> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>> --
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian Hellmann
>>
>> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
>> (KILT) Competence Center
>> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>> http://linguistics.okfn.org
>
>> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> Research Group: http://aksw.org
>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>>
>>
>>
>> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>>
>>
>>
>> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido
>> por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>>
>>
>>
>> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>>
>>
>>
>> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>>
>>
>>
>> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>>
>> --
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian Hellmann
>>
>> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
>> (KILT) Competence Center
>> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>> http://linguistics.okfn.org
>> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>
>> Research Group: http://aksw.org[anexo "lnleobnaofjmkfjh.png"
>> removido por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>
>
>
> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento.
> Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
> autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
> ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
> proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>
>
>
> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing.
> The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
> publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
> action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures
> is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>
>
>
> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la
> debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier
> otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están
> prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
Sebastian Samaruga
2017-07-13 13:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Regarding typing by the properties of aggregated subjects / objects: domain
/ range having these properties or values for those properties (meta-types,
I call them 'kinds') I see no trouble in inferring inheritance hierarchies
being sub-classes a superset of the properties of parent classes
properties. Once the inference is done (curated) there should be no problem
in materializing (dinamically?) into RDFS / OWL, maybe via XSLT.

Draft here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OqsVn6uo0cr6qruzWj9yRASrmvAIAf4HsHuLS2aRSy8/edit?usp=drivesdk

And here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VrvIV4rXyUyGl5jvDAgsEV4GRxX_NvMICgkdnbvj9DQ/edit?usp=drivesdk

Regards,
Sebastián.
On Jul 13, 2017 2:55 AM, "Olivier Rossel" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Once again, I will give you my opinion, as the service implementor of
> search.datao.net.
>
> search.datao.net is a lookup service where you type the label of a
> resource, retrieve from an internal DB all the resources of the
> LinkedData with such a label (+their type and endpoint), and then
> lookup all the queries stored in Datao that can be applied upon those
> resources.
>
> The queries lookup step matches the types and endpoint of the found
> resources vs the types and endpoint in the queries stored in Datao.
>
> Simply said, I heavily rely upon the types of the resources in the
> LinkedData (both when indexing in the internal DB, and during the
> lookup for applicable queries).
>
> If you change the typing in DBPedia, there are critical consequences
> for my service.
>
> As far as I understand, you want to go from ineritance to (some kind
> of) composition to precisely define a given Person instance.
>
> That sounds like an very interesting move from a conceptual level.
>
> But practically, from my own perspective as a service implementor,
> this has enormous impacts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 AM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
> > Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> wrote on
> 2017-07-11
> > 19:10:03:
> >> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
> >> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
> >> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
> >> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
> brought
> >> up.
> >
> > Child, Teenager and Adult come to mind, but these could also be seen as
> > phases of Person and would require timely updating. It's the problem we
> have
> > with roles. Possible but not practical. In the past, Man and Woman were
> > natural subclasses, but since we have the property dbo:sex, it is not
> worth.
> >
> > Since subclassing Person would mean referring to a minority, the
> politically
> > correct people would be against ANY subclass... :-)
> >
> > There are some sensible subclasses, like Celebrity, but Persons which
> appear
> > on Wikipedia are all Celebrities, so this would be also useless.
> >
> > I am inclined to agree with you that we could cover any situation with
> > proper properties (pun intended), even fictitious/non-fictitious. Which
> > would exclude the need for Cyborg and other strange classes with no
> actual
> > instances outside fiction.
> >
> >
> > Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> gravou em
> 2017-07-11
> > 19:10:03:
> >
> >> De: Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>
> >> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, John Flynn
> >> <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
> >> Data: 2017-07-11 19:10
> >> Assunto: Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: [DBpedia-
> >> discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >
> >> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should
> >> see the whole thing as an "information machine". From this
> >> perspective the purpose of the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
> >> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users
> >> want to retrieve?
> >> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
> >> other ontologies allows to export information into other schemas
> >> without much ontological committment
> >> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
> >> person was to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We
> >> are at around 60% right now. Another goal would be to validate the
> >> correctness by cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National
> >> Library. So the ontology should directly produce a system that can
> >> help us track what data is missing. SHACL provides us with a new
> >> modeling paradigm and we will make a call for SHACL specs of DBpedia
> >> applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's ontology. We are
> >> still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems like a
> >> good option.
> >>
> >> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top
> >> classes should provide enough structure to build a consistent
> >> system. There are many extra ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc.
> >> that can all be sorted under these then. We might even resort
> >> (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe for roles or build a
> >> separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e. <Peter> a
> >> dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
> >> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia
> >> Article. Given that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article
> >> types, we can help with building a structure that distinguishes
> >> between Individual articles, i.e. Barrack Obama and Categorial /
> >> Role-type articles, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor. Such
> >
> >> information can be taken from text, which is why we are building up
> >>
> > http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
> >
> >>
> >> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
> >> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
> >> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
> >> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
> brought
> >> up.
> >>
> >> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
> >> spouse being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
> >> perspective, if functionality is consistent for 95% of the data,
> >> this might be something we can live with. Proper documentation of
> >> these pitfalls can be given.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >> Sebastian
> >>
> >
> >> On 10.07.2017 18:24, ***@petrobras.com.br wrote:
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational
> >> ontology would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it
> >> would be hard, if not impossible, to get every single aspect right.
> >> However, a totally property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed,
> >> would not really need an OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data
> >> model is quite suitable to representing it.
> >>
> >> I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic
> >> reasoning, it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning,
> >> it has to be sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to
> >> guarantee the reasoners can do their work.
> >>
> >> I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of
> >> the biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name.
> >> You just rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.
> >>
> >> I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
> >> sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person.
> >> This is a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of
> >> people do it because they have worked their whole life with ER
> >> diagrams, and most of the time that led to relational bases that
> >> worked fine. But conceptually, this leads to a lot of problems,
> >> since a Person is a kind, i.e., it has an identifier that
> >> distinguishes every instance from one another. And a Person who is
> >> both a Painter and a Boxer would have two IDs, it would be two
> >> persons simmultaneously (this is not like multiple inheritance, OWL
> >> is not C++). And worst, if a Skater injuries it self and stop being
> >> a skater, it ceases also to be a Person, which is not what the
> >> ontology is suposed to represent. If you simply ignore these
> >> problems you will end up with inconsistent ontologies which will
> >> lead to bad inference. You can make a simple model, but not too
> >> much, otherwise it does not represent what it should.
> >>
> >> Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and
> >> that works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the
> >> owl:subClass gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of
> >> PART-OF relation. In other points, such as the case with Document/
> >> File and Document/Image (but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot
> >> the distinction between the piece of work (a novel, a law) and the
> >> media that supports it (a file, a physical book, a rock). Putting
> >> File as a subclass of Document is a big, big mistake. This things
> >> must be corrected to improve the quality of the ontology and make it
> >> more useful.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you
> >> have to apply some definitions, and those should work together. When
> >> a ontology is built with definitions made by several people, you
> >> have to make sure they do not collide, even if they are simple.
> >> Sometimes the correction is also simple: move the Person subtree to
> >> a PersonOccupation subtree and everything will make sense. This
> >> would help people work directly with more DBpedia classes instead of
> >> making extensive remapping inside their applications.
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers.
> >> =============================================
> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> >> PETROBRAS
> >> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
> (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> >> ramal: 706-7507
> >>
> >> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> >> =============================================
> >> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
> >> postero.
> >> -- Horatius
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga"
> >> <***@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>,
> >> "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John Flynn"
> >> <***@verizon.net>
> >> Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
> >> Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> >> demos for DBpedia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Marcelo,
> >>
> >> classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble
> >> by taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be
> >> organized some particular way.
> >>
> >> People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree
> >> about properties, for instance, this famous film critic
> >>
> >>
> > http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art
> >
> >>
> >> thinks that
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)
> >>
> >> is art and that
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)
> >
> >>
> >> is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
> >> probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
> >> "creative" works.
> >>
> >> "Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of
> >> bad ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
> >> organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some
> >> cases this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the
> >> case of recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have
> >> elaborate faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model
> >> of Anatomy) it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property
> >> used for very different purposes such as defining what kind of organ
> >> the kidney is but also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins
> >> that fan out from the heart.
> >>
> >> It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and
> >> see that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries
> >> is not true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
> >> intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
> >> hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even
> >> if they are frequently called veins.
> >>
> >> Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy
> >> and that distorts the properties in place so there is not a
> >> consistent set of properties that would let you follow a blood
> >> vessel from the heart, to the digestive system, through the portal
> >> system, and ultimately back to the heart. You get bad properties
> >> because of a bad classification.
> >>
> >> At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is
> >> a dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it
> >> when they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
> >> rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for
> >> people, it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes
> >> your OWL reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is
> >> a simple problem (or that would be a simple problem if you
> >> formulated it correctly.)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------ Original Message ------
> >> From: ***@petrobras.com.br
> >> To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
> >> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn" <
> >> ***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> >> Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> >> DBpedia
> >>
> >> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of
> >> the subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can
> >> only be defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it.
> >> This may be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person
> >> has a birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on
> >> that, there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and
> >> such individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words,
> >> the domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to
> >> all living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
> >> 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large
> >> debate regarding birth and conception -- when is the gamete-ovum-
> >> embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an era or
> >> the birth of a project? The domain to which the property birthDate
> >> can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
> >> property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it
> >> is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate
> >> SHOULD be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals.
> >> Property and domain definitions are part of the ontology definition,
> >> and a lot of them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's
> >> ontology. For example, the property date has a correct range of
> >> xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means
> >> anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain
> >> should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly
> >> a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia
> >> Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
> >> days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not
> >> easy to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
> >>
> >> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
> >> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
> >> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
> >> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
> >> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here
> >> is Plato’s man.’
> >>
> >> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
> >> automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
> >> rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
> >> check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making
> >> errors such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent
> >> classes because they have the same properties. Sometimes the
> >> distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may argue that in this
> >> case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but that is
> >> another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers.
> >> =============================================
> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> >> PETROBRAS
> >> =============================================
> >>
> >> =============================================
> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> >> PETROBRAS
> >> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
> (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
> >> user-id: bi70
> >> ramal: 706-7507
> >>
> >> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
> >> =============================================
> >> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
> >> postero.
> >> -- Horatius
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
> >> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
> >> public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian
> Hellmann
> >> <
> >> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-
> >> ***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
> >> <semantic-***@w3c.org>
> >> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
> >> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> >> demos for DBpedia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
> >> respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
> >> common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
> >> 'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
> >> those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
> >> objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of
> >> a subclass.
> >> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
> >> Sebastian.
> >
> >> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
> >> Virtus in medium est.
> >>
> >> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and
> >> needs some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with
> >> almost no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept
> >> hierarchy and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the
> >> ontology) need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to
> >> something more than mere documentation.
> >>
> >> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider
> >> the scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no
> >> scope boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable
> >> foundational ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not
> >> quoting Trump, it is really huge.
> >>
> >> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to
> >> any foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would
> >> hurt DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight
> >> years about an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree
> >> it is a intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater
> >> play. The ontology should reflect that, without getting in details
> >> about how software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these
> >> details are important only to applications dealing with the concept
> >> of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
> >>
> >> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
> >> subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is
> >> very hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where
> >> such refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
> >> refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
> >> avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
> >> Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should
> >> also avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead
> >> to stuff like partition completeness and other stuff which are
> >> clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
> >>
> >> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't
> >> make much sense.
> >>
> >> Cheers.
> >> =============================================
> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
> >> Petrobras, Brazil
> >> =============================================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
> >> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian
> Hellmann'" <
> >> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
> >> semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
> >> Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
> >> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
> >> demos for DBpedia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would disagree.
> >>
> >> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
> >> reasoning.
> >>
> >> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
> >> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood
> >> "semantic web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then
> >> classes second. Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards;
> >> the point is not to replicate or even closely describe the
> >> performance or rules of the game, but to go after the long hanging
> >> fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
> >>
> >> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
> >> conventional application development and introductory computer
> >> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
> >> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
> >> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
> >> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
> >> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
> >> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
> >> tree.
> >>
> >> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area
> >> you are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data
> >> structures appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly
> >> incorporate data from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is
> >> necessary. That's not different at all from the situation of "doing
> >> reasoning over reasoning over data collected by a large organization".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------ Original Message ------
> >> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
> >> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
> >> "'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
> >> public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <Dbpedia-***@lists.
> sourceforge.net>
> >> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
> >> DBpedia
> >>
> >> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
> >> just took a look at the ontology represented in (https://
> >> dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as referenced
> >> in the email below.
> >> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
> >> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes
> >> that were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general
> >> idea of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
> >> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
> >> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food,
> >> Media, Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic,
> >> Diploma, Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease,
> >> GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram, Demographics,
> >> Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after this
> >> small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to
> >> worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather
> >> than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be
> >> established to go back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia
> >> ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as
> >> it is currently structured.
> >>
> >> John Flynn
> >>
> > http://semanticsimulations.com
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
> >> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
> >> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
> >> (http://mappings.dbpedia.org
> >> ) to another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools
> >> here:
> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/
> >> 1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
> >> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez,
> >> our GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will
> >> probably only consider editors with a running demo, so the community
> >> can try it.
> >> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology
> >> and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we
> >> provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
> >> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|http://
> >> www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
> >> dbo_no_mappings.nt
> >>
> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
> >> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke
> >> any axioms...)
> >>
> >> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
> >> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
> >> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list
> >> [1] or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
> >>
> >> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next
> >> DBpedia Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each
> >> first Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also
> >> welcome. We will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia
> >> meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://
> >> wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
> >>
> >> Thank you for your help!
> >>
> >> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
> >>
> >> --
> >> All the best,
> >> Sebastian Hellmann
> >>
> >> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
> >> (KILT) Competence Center
> >> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> >> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> >> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
> >> http://linguistics.okfn.org
> >
> >> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
> >> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
> >> Research Group: http://aksw.org
> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> >> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido
> >> por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
> >>
> >> --
> >> All the best,
> >> Sebastian Hellmann
> >>
> >> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
> >> (KILT) Competence Center
> >> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
> >> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
> >> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
> >> http://linguistics.okfn.org
> >> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
> >> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
> >
> >> Research Group: http://aksw.org[anexo "lnleobnaofjmkfjh.png"
> >> removido por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
> >
> >
> >
> > "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
> endereçamento.
> > Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
> > autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra
> > ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
> > proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."
> >
> >
> >
> > "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
> addressing.
> > The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the
> > publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
> > action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and
> procedures
> > is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
> >
> >
> >
> > "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
> > direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
> Sin la
> > debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
> cualquier
> > otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están
> > prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
> > DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> > DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
Olivier Rossel
2017-07-13 14:04:15 UTC
Permalink
I must admit I find this discussion fascinating.

As far as I understand, Sebastian H. proposes NOT to materialize the types
in the DB.

So (what I call) service implementors (or call them SPARQL authors, if you
want) will specialize their query by first matching a set of qualifying
properties that THEY consider to be relevant.

So basically service implementors manage their own type system via a
subpart the of their query instead of letting the DB modelers decide for
them.
Le jeu. 13 juil. 2017 à 15:57, Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com> a
écrit :

> Regarding typing by the properties of aggregated subjects / objects:
> domain / range having these properties or values for those properties
> (meta-types, I call them 'kinds') I see no trouble in inferring inheritance
> hierarchies being sub-classes a superset of the properties of parent
> classes properties. Once the inference is done (curated) there should be no
> problem in materializing (dinamically?) into RDFS / OWL, maybe via XSLT.
>
> Draft here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OqsVn6uo0cr6qruzWj9yRASrmvAIAf4HsHuLS2aRSy8/edit?usp=drivesdk
>
> And here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VrvIV4rXyUyGl5jvDAgsEV4GRxX_NvMICgkdnbvj9DQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
>
> Regards,
> Sebastián.
> On Jul 13, 2017 2:55 AM, "Olivier Rossel" <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Once again, I will give you my opinion, as the service implementor of
>> search.datao.net.
>>
>> search.datao.net is a lookup service where you type the label of a
>> resource, retrieve from an internal DB all the resources of the
>> LinkedData with such a label (+their type and endpoint), and then
>> lookup all the queries stored in Datao that can be applied upon those
>> resources.
>>
>> The queries lookup step matches the types and endpoint of the found
>> resources vs the types and endpoint in the queries stored in Datao.
>>
>> Simply said, I heavily rely upon the types of the resources in the
>> LinkedData (both when indexing in the internal DB, and during the
>> lookup for applicable queries).
>>
>> If you change the typing in DBPedia, there are critical consequences
>> for my service.
>>
>> As far as I understand, you want to go from ineritance to (some kind
>> of) composition to precisely define a given Person instance.
>>
>> That sounds like an very interesting move from a conceptual level.
>>
>> But practically, from my own perspective as a service implementor,
>> this has enormous impacts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 AM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>> > Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> wrote on
>> 2017-07-11
>> > 19:10:03:
>> >> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
>> >> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
>> >> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
>> >> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
>> brought
>> >> up.
>> >
>> > Child, Teenager and Adult come to mind, but these could also be seen as
>> > phases of Person and would require timely updating. It's the problem we
>> have
>> > with roles. Possible but not practical. In the past, Man and Woman were
>> > natural subclasses, but since we have the property dbo:sex, it is not
>> worth.
>> >
>> > Since subclassing Person would mean referring to a minority, the
>> politically
>> > correct people would be against ANY subclass... :-)
>> >
>> > There are some sensible subclasses, like Celebrity, but Persons which
>> appear
>> > on Wikipedia are all Celebrities, so this would be also useless.
>> >
>> > I am inclined to agree with you that we could cover any situation with
>> > proper properties (pun intended), even fictitious/non-fictitious. Which
>> > would exclude the need for Cyborg and other strange classes with no
>> actual
>> > instances outside fiction.
>> >
>> >
>> > Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> gravou em
>> 2017-07-11
>> > 19:10:03:
>> >
>> >> De: Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
>> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>
>> >> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>, John Flynn
>> >> <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
>> >> Data: 2017-07-11 19:10
>> >> Assunto: Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: [DBpedia-
>> >> discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >
>> >> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should
>> >> see the whole thing as an "information machine". From this
>> >> perspective the purpose of the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
>> >> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users
>> >> want to retrieve?
>> >> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
>> >> other ontologies allows to export information into other schemas
>> >> without much ontological committment
>> >> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
>> >> person was to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We
>> >> are at around 60% right now. Another goal would be to validate the
>> >> correctness by cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National
>> >> Library. So the ontology should directly produce a system that can
>> >> help us track what data is missing. SHACL provides us with a new
>> >> modeling paradigm and we will make a call for SHACL specs of DBpedia
>> >> applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's ontology. We are
>> >> still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems like a
>> >> good option.
>> >>
>> >> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top
>> >> classes should provide enough structure to build a consistent
>> >> system. There are many extra ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc.
>> >> that can all be sorted under these then. We might even resort
>> >> (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe for roles or build a
>> >> separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e. <Peter> a
>> >> dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
>> >> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia
>> >> Article. Given that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article
>> >> types, we can help with building a structure that distinguishes
>> >> between Individual articles, i.e. Barrack Obama and Categorial /
>> >> Role-type articles, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor. Such
>> >
>> >> information can be taken from text, which is why we are building up
>> >>
>> > http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>> >
>> >>
>> >> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be
>> >> subclass of Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction
>> >> that lasts lifelong is fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about
>> >> disallowing subclasses of Person, unless there is a valid concern
>> brought
>> >> up.
>> >>
>> >> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
>> >> spouse being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
>> >> perspective, if functionality is consistent for 95% of the data,
>> >> this might be something we can live with. Proper documentation of
>> >> these pitfalls can be given.
>> >>
>> >> All the best,
>> >> Sebastian
>> >>
>> >
>> >> On 10.07.2017 18:24, ***@petrobras.com.br wrote:
>> >> Hi Paul,
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you, and that's why I said adopting a foundational
>> >> ontology would be unwise for DBpedia: it is so heterogeneus, that it
>> >> would be hard, if not impossible, to get every single aspect right.
>> >> However, a totally property-infered model, like Samaruga proposed,
>> >> would not really need an OWL, DL-based ontology, the RDF/linked data
>> >> model is quite suitable to representing it.
>> >>
>> >> I suppose DBpedia's ontology is aimed at supporting some basic
>> >> reasoning, it is not just a documenting tool. To support reasoning,
>> >> it has to be sound. So at least some sort of validation is needed to
>> >> guarantee the reasoners can do their work.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not refering to nomenclature problems like calling the root of
>> >> the biological taxonomy dbo:Species, which a horribly chosen name.
>> >> You just rename it to LivingBeing and then it should be OK.
>> >>
>> >> I'm talking about problems like creating a class Person and then
>> >> sub-classing it with Roles, which are not sub-classes of Person.
>> >> This is a very common mistake in conceptual modeling, and a lot of
>> >> people do it because they have worked their whole life with ER
>> >> diagrams, and most of the time that led to relational bases that
>> >> worked fine. But conceptually, this leads to a lot of problems,
>> >> since a Person is a kind, i.e., it has an identifier that
>> >> distinguishes every instance from one another. And a Person who is
>> >> both a Painter and a Boxer would have two IDs, it would be two
>> >> persons simmultaneously (this is not like multiple inheritance, OWL
>> >> is not C++). And worst, if a Skater injuries it self and stop being
>> >> a skater, it ceases also to be a Person, which is not what the
>> >> ontology is suposed to represent. If you simply ignore these
>> >> problems you will end up with inconsistent ontologies which will
>> >> lead to bad inference. You can make a simple model, but not too
>> >> much, otherwise it does not represent what it should.
>> >>
>> >> Some parts od the dbPedia ontology are simple as they should be, and
>> >> that works fine, but other parts look like a SKOS tree, where the
>> >> owl:subClass gets confused with skos:narrower of some other sort of
>> >> PART-OF relation. In other points, such as the case with Document/
>> >> File and Document/Image (but no Document/Text), the modeler forgot
>> >> the distinction between the piece of work (a novel, a law) and the
>> >> media that supports it (a file, a physical book, a rock). Putting
>> >> File as a subclass of Document is a big, big mistake. This things
>> >> must be corrected to improve the quality of the ontology and make it
>> >> more useful.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not saying you should apply very strict definitions, but you
>> >> have to apply some definitions, and those should work together. When
>> >> a ontology is built with definitions made by several people, you
>> >> have to make sure they do not collide, even if they are simple.
>> >> Sometimes the correction is also simple: move the Person subtree to
>> >> a PersonOccupation subtree and everything will make sense. This
>> >> would help people work directly with more DBpedia classes instead of
>> >> making extensive remapping inside their applications.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers.
>> >> =============================================
>> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> >> PETROBRAS
>> >> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
>> (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
>> >> ramal: 706-7507
>> >>
>> >> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
>> >> =============================================
>> >> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
>> >> postero.
>> >> -- Horatius
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br, "Sebastian Samaruga"
>> >> <***@gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>,
>> >> "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "John
>> Flynn"
>> >> <***@verizon.net>
>> >> Data: 2017-07-10 10:41
>> >> Assunto: Re[2]: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> >> demos for DBpedia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Marcelo,
>> >>
>> >> classes have their place, but people get into a lot of trouble
>> >> by taking classes too seriously or deciding they have to be
>> >> organized some particular way.
>> >>
>> >> People tend to disagree about classes more than they disagree
>> >> about properties, for instance, this famous film critic
>> >>
>> >>
>> > http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/video-games-can-never-be-art
>> >
>> >>
>> >> thinks that
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(film)
>> >>
>> >> is art and that
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_Evil_(2002_video_game)
>> >
>> >>
>> >> is not. Roget Ebert disagrees about the class hierarchy, but
>> >> probably would agree with all of the properties asserted for both
>> >> "creative" works.
>> >>
>> >> "Class first" thinking also tiles with other endemic forms of
>> >> bad ontology. For instance, many ontologists believe that a "well
>> >> organized" classification tiles everything into a tree. In some
>> >> cases this is driven by the linearization of the tree (as in the
>> >> case of recent versions of the Dewey Decimal system which have
>> >> elaborate faceting in some areas) in other cases (Foundational Model
>> >> of Anatomy) it is a preference (which leaves the "is a" property
>> >> used for very different purposes such as defining what kind of organ
>> >> the kidney is but also defining the hierarchy of arteries and veins
>> >> that fan out from the heart.
>> >>
>> >> It all sorta-kinda makes sense, except when you look close and
>> >> see that the classification of blood vessels into veins and arteries
>> >> is not true and in fact there are blood vessels that connect the
>> >> intestines/spleen/etc. to the liver as well as that connect the
>> >> hypothalamus to the pituitary that are not arteries or veins, even
>> >> if they are frequently called veins.
>> >>
>> >> Trouble is, the FMA starts with the "vein", "artery" dichotomy
>> >> and that distorts the properties in place so there is not a
>> >> consistent set of properties that would let you follow a blood
>> >> vessel from the heart, to the digestive system, through the portal
>> >> system, and ultimately back to the heart. You get bad properties
>> >> because of a bad classification.
>> >>
>> >> At risk of sounding like Korzybski, I'd also say that "is a" is
>> >> a dangerous phrase. One trouble with it is that some people use it
>> >> when they want to say rdf:type, other people when they want to say
>> >> rdfs:subClassOf. It causes a certain amount of confusion for
>> >> people, it causes even more trouble when mixing these up causes
>> >> your OWL reasoner to run for a few hours to solve what you think is
>> >> a simple problem (or that would be a simple problem if you
>> >> formulated it correctly.)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------ Original Message ------
>> >> From: ***@petrobras.com.br
>> >> To: "Sebastian Samaruga" <***@gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>; "Sebastian
>> >> Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>; "John Flynn" <
>> >> ***@verizon.net>; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> >> Sent: 7/7/2017 2:11:05 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> >> DBpedia
>> >>
>> >> Yes, it is possible to define classes solely on the properties of
>> >> the subjects, following the philosophic view what a thing IS can
>> >> only be defined based on the properties that you can percieve in it.
>> >> This may be true, but is not useful. Yes, you can say that a Person
>> >> has a birthDate, but the definition of Person cannot rely solely on
>> >> that, there are other things such as Lion that have birthDates and
>> >> such individuals do not belong to the class Person. In other words,
>> >> the domain of birthDate is not Persons. Neither is it applicable to
>> >> all living beings: what part of a Frog or Butterfly lifeline is the
>> >> 'birth'? When is a Tree "born"? Even in humans there is a large
>> >> debate regarding birth and conception -- when is the gamete-ovum-
>> >> embryo-fetus-baby "alive"? And what about the birth of an era or
>> >> the birth of a project? The domain to which the property birthDate
>> >> can be attached must be properly defined to avoid misuse of the
>> >> property. Bear in mind that DBpedia does have a class Birth, and it
>> >> is a subclass of PersonalEvent, so to be consistent, birthDate
>> >> SHOULD be applicable only to persons, and not to other animals.
>> >> Property and domain definitions are part of the ontology definition,
>> >> and a lot of them are lacking or inappropriately defined DBpedia's
>> >> ontology. For example, the property date has a correct range of
>> >> xsd:date, but the domain is defined as owl:Thing, which means
>> >> anything may have a date. That is IMHO totally wrong: the domain
>> >> should be an event, not owl:Thing. However, dbo:Event is not exactly
>> >> a event in the proper time-continuum sense, since an the dbPedia
>> >> Event is not puntcual, but durative (e.g. a SportEvent may take
>> >> days, and a SpaceMission may take years. As I said before, it is not
>> >> easy to get everything right. It takes a lot of effort.
>> >>
>> >> An ontology based solely on property aggregation is doomed to be an
>> >> ontology with bad definitions. It reminds me of the case of Plato's
>> >> definition of a human being as a featherless biped (based on its
>> >> properties), and the consequent rebate by Diogenes, who plucked the
>> >> feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here
>> >> is Plato’s man.’
>> >>
>> >> Yes, such property-defined ontologies exist, mainly originated by
>> >> automata that aggregates related terms statistically, but you cannot
>> >> rely just on that to build a useful ontology. You need a Person to
>> >> check if the result makes sense, to be sure you are not making
>> >> errors such as infering that Band and Orchestra are equivalent
>> >> classes because they have the same properties. Sometimes the
>> >> distinguishing feature is not mapped. (You may argue that in this
>> >> case you should have a single class MusicalGroup, but that is
>> >> another discussion, about granularity and abstract classes.)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers.
>> >> =============================================
>> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> >> PETROBRAS
>> >> =============================================
>> >>
>> >> =============================================
>> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> >> PETROBRAS
>> >> Tecnologia da Informação e Comunicações - Arquitetura
>> (TIC/ARQSERV/ARQTIC)
>> >> user-id: bi70
>> >> ramal: 706-7507
>> >>
>> >> tel: +55 (21) 2116-7507
>> >> =============================================
>> >> dum loquimur, fugetir invida aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula
>> >> postero.
>> >> -- Horatius
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> De: Sebastian Samaruga <***@gmail.com>
>> >> Para: ***@petrobras.com.br
>> >> Cc: Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>, public-lod <
>> >> public-***@w3.org>, John Flynn <***@verizon.net>, Sebastian
>> Hellmann
>> >> <
>> >> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, DBpedia <Dbpedia-
>> >> ***@lists.sourceforge.net>, semantic-web at W3C
>> >> <semantic-***@w3c.org>
>> >> Data: 2017-07-06 15:56
>> >> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> >> demos for DBpedia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Question: isn't it possible to 'aggregate' classes of subjects in
>> >> respect to the properties / predicates some set of subjects have in
>> >> common. Example: a Person class subjects would have 'birthPlace',
>> >> 'birthDate' and 'name' properties and an Artist subclass would have
>> >> those properties of Person plus 'creatorOf' properties of artworks
>> >> objects. So a superclass would have a superset of the properties of
>> >> a subclass.
>> >> Sorry for my ignorance. Best,
>> >> Sebastian.
>> >
>> >> On Jul 6, 2017 3:30 PM, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:
>> >> Virtus in medium est.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that by any standard, the DBpedia Ontology is messy, and
>> >> needs some work. Otherwise, it would be only a list of concepts with
>> >> almost no relations between them. These relations (the subconcept
>> >> hierarchy and other relevant relations defined by the authors of the
>> >> ontology) need to be there if the ontology is to be useful to
>> >> something more than mere documentation.
>> >>
>> >> However, a well sound ontology needs a LOT of work, and the wider
>> >> the scope, the harder it is to get it right. Since DBpedia has no
>> >> scope boundaries, the amount of work to select a suitable
>> >> foundational ontology and expand it would be huge. No, I'm not
>> >> quoting Trump, it is really huge.
>> >>
>> >> What DBpedia needs is a few abstract notions without commitment to
>> >> any foundational ontology, since the tradeoffs each FO makes would
>> >> hurt DBpedia genericity. For example, different groups may fight
>> >> years about an exact definition of "Software", but most will agree
>> >> it is a intelectual product, such as a romance, a song or a theater
>> >> play. The ontology should reflect that, without getting in details
>> >> about how software is encoded, versioned, reified etc., since these
>> >> details are important only to applications dealing with the concept
>> >> of software, and not for DBpedia itself.
>> >>
>> >> A few months ago, I complained that ComputerLanguage was not a
>> >> subconcept of Language, and it was promptly corrected, since it is
>> >> very hard do disagree with that. There are a lot of places where
>> >> such refactoring is needed, and I think it would help a lot. Further
>> >> refining, such as creating subclasses of ComputerLanguage, should be
>> >> avoided in the name of keeping the ontology simple and generic.
>> >> Upper-level classes are needed to sort things out, but one should
>> >> also avoid defining things like disjointness because it would lead
>> >> to stuff like partition completeness and other stuff which are
>> >> clearly not needed for the purposes of DBpedia.
>> >>
>> >> But I agree a cleanup is needed, since a lot of dbo:Things don't
>> >> make much sense.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers.
>> >> =============================================
>> >> Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
>> >> Petrobras, Brazil
>> >> =============================================
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> De: "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
>> >> Para: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>, "'Sebastian
>> Hellmann'" <
>> >> ***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "'semantic-web at W3C'" <
>> >> semantic-***@w3c.org>, 'public-lod' <public-***@w3.org>, 'DBpedia' <
>> >> Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> Data: 2017-07-06 12:25
>> >> Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor
>> >> demos for DBpedia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I would disagree.
>> >>
>> >> The DBpedia Ontology is not designed to support any specific kind of
>> >> reasoning.
>> >>
>> >> What it *is* designed to do is capture the somewhat structured data
>> >> that exists in Wikipedia. Following the much misunderstood
>> >> "semantic web", the emphasis is on properties first, and then
>> >> classes second. Think of it as a set of baseball or Pokemon cards;
>> >> the point is not to replicate or even closely describe the
>> >> performance or rules of the game, but to go after the long hanging
>> >> fruit of "things that are easy to ontologize."
>> >>
>> >> There is a real price to pay for this; from the viewpoint of
>> >> conventional application development and introductory computer
>> >> science, the data is not always factually correct or satisfies the
>> >> invariants required for a particular algorithm. Practically that
>> >> means that you might ask for "US States" and get 48 or 51, that
>> >> somebody like Barry Bonds or Mel Gibson has their career much better
>> >> represented than J. Edgar Hoover or J. Eric S. Thompson, and you
>> >> would probably find that the "tree of life" in DBpedia is not really a
>> >> tree.
>> >>
>> >> If you need to reasoning in some domain you need to find some area
>> >> you are willing to pump the entropy out of, create the data
>> >> structures appropriate for what you want to do, and possibly
>> >> incorporate data from DBpedia, doing whatever cleanup is
>> >> necessary. That's not different at all from the situation of "doing
>> >> reasoning over reasoning over data collected by a large organization".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------ Original Message ------
>> >> From: "John Flynn" <***@verizon.net>
>> >> To: "'Sebastian Hellmann'" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
>> >> "'semantic-web at W3C'" <semantic-***@w3c.org>; "'public-lod'" <
>> >> public-***@w3.org>; "'DBpedia'" <
>> Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >> Sent: 7/5/2017 11:43:02 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> >> DBpedia
>> >>
>> >> I have long been curious about the DBpedia ontology structure so I
>> >> just took a look at the ontology represented in (https://
>> >> dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt) as referenced
>> >> in the email below.
>> >> I normally start the evaluation of an ontology by looking at the
>> >> top-down class relationships. So, I did a search for the classes
>> >> that were listed as a direct subclass of owl#Thing to get a general
>> >> idea of the organization of the DBpedia class structure.
>> >> To say the least, I was sorely disappointed. Here are a few of the
>> >> DBpedia classes that are direct subclasses of owl#Thing: Food,
>> >> Media, Work, Blazon, Altitude, Language, Currency, Statistic,
>> >> Diploma, Award, Agent, PublicService, Disease,
>> >> GrossDomesticProdutPerCapita, ElectionDiagram, Demographics,
>> >> Relationship, Medicine, List, BioMolecule. I gave up after this
>> >> small sample. It is obvious that the DBpedia community needs to
>> >> worry a lot more about the structure of the ontology itself rather
>> >> than focusing on selecting a new editor. A working group needs to be
>> >> established to go back to the drawing board and look at the DBpedia
>> >> ontology form the top down. It certainly doesn't make much sense as
>> >> it is currently structured.
>> >>
>> >> John Flynn
>> >>
>> > http://semanticsimulations.com
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Sebastian Hellmann [mailto:***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:43 AM
>> >> To: 'semantic-web at W3C'; public-lod; DBpedia
>> >> Subject: [DBpedia-discussion] Call for Ontology Editor demos for
>> DBpedia
>> >>
>> >> Dear all,
>> >> we are preparing a switch from the mappings wiki
>> >> (http://mappings.dbpedia.org
>> >> ) to another ontology editor and started to collect requirements/tools
>> >> here:
>> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/
>> >> 1HwtJJ3jIlrQAPwHYhvpw4a4Z4hZorTGaZTB8Bq8Y-TI/edit
>> >> We already have a demo for Webprotege thanks to Ismael Rodriguez,
>> >> our GSoC student. As we are lacking time and resources, we will
>> >> probably only consider editors with a running demo, so the community
>> >> can try it.
>> >> Our main interest is of course to manage the DBpedia core ontology
>> >> and push any mappings to other ontologies in separate files. So we
>> >> provide a core version for demo purposes created with:
>> >> rapper -g dbpedia_2016-10.nt | grep -v '\(http://schema.org\|http://
>> >> www.wikidata.org\|http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org\)' >
>> >> dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> >>
>> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/375401/dbo_no_mappings.nt
>> >> (I hope that the regex didn't kick out anything essential or broke
>> >> any axioms...)
>> >>
>> >> We would be very happy, if anyone from the semantic web community
>> >> would make a demo with their favorite editor and add a link to the
>> >> Google Doc and post a short message on the DBpedia discussion list
>> >> [1] or on slack https://dbpedia.slack.com/.
>> >>
>> >> This would help us to make a more informed decision. The next
>> >> DBpedia Dev online meeting will be on 2nd of August 14:00 (each
>> >> first Wednesday per month). Presentations of editors are also
>> >> welcome. We will also discuss the editor question during the DBpedia
>> >> meeting in Amsterdam, co-located with SEMANTiCS on 14.9. http://
>> >> wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Amsterdam2017
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for your help!
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/dbpedia/lists/dbpedia-discussion
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> All the best,
>> >> Sebastian Hellmann
>> >>
>> >> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
>> >> (KILT) Competence Center
>> >> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> >> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> >> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>> >> http://linguistics.okfn.org
>> >
>> >> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> >> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> >> Research Group: http://aksw.org
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> >> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."[anexo "att696od.jpg" removido
>> >> por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> >> endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento
>> >> adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a
>> >> distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas
>> >> internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção
>> >> disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> >> addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due
>> >> authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the
>> >> performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System
>> >> internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to
>> >> disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> >> direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento
>> >> adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción,
>> >> distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas
>> >> internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de
>> >> sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> All the best,
>> >> Sebastian Hellmann
>> >>
>> >> Director of Knowledge Integration and Linked Data Technologies
>> >> (KILT) Competence Center
>> >> at the Institute for Applied Informatics (InfAI) at Leipzig University
>> >> Executive Director of the DBpedia Association
>> >> Projects: http://dbpedia.org, http://nlp2rdf.org,
>> >> http://linguistics.okfn.org
>> >> , https://www.w3.org/community/ld4lt
>> >> Homepage: http://aksw.org/SebastianHellmann
>> >
>> >> Research Group: http://aksw.org[anexo "lnleobnaofjmkfjh.png"
>> >> removido por Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral/BRA/Petrobras]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e
>> endereçamento.
>> > Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida
>> > autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer
>> outra
>> > ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são
>> > proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "The sender of this message is responsible for its content and
>> addressing.
>> > The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization,
>> the
>> > publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other
>> > action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and
>> procedures
>> > is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y
>> > direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado.
>> Sin la
>> > debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o
>> cualquier
>> > otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras
>> están
>> > prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> > DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>
>
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-14 16:31:40 UTC
Permalink
On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should see the
> whole thing as an "information machine". From this perspective the purpose of
> the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
>
> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users want to
> retrieve?

As a user I would like to not retrieve false information. (I realize that if
there is false information in DBpedia that comes from Wikipedia there is
little that can be done.) However, I don't want the DBpedia ontology to cause
extra falsities. This means, for example, that monastery should not be a
subclass of building.

> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to other
> ontologies allows to export information into other schemas without much
> ontological committment

Relying only on links between co-extensional classes is inadequate so using
inclusion relationships is better. However, it would be useful to be able to
say that a DBpedia class is more general than a class from other ontology, not
just that it is more specific.

> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every person was
> to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We are at around 60%
> right now. Another goal would be to validate the correctness by
> cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National Library. So the ontology
> should directly produce a system that can help us track what data is missing.
> SHACL provides us with a new modeling paradigm and we will make a call for
> SHACL specs of DBpedia applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's
> ontology. We are still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems
> like a good option.

I don't see this as a viable goal. Sure, getting more data (out of Wikipedia)
is useful, but Wikipedia isn't designed to be complete in this way. Further,
some data, including birthdates, is always going to be incomplete. The
birthdates of some historical figures are currently unknown and some of these
are likely never to be known.

Given that this is the case, what should be done instead? My view is that
systems like DBpedia should be accepting of incomplete data. Further, they
should provide facilities to get as much as possible out of incomplete data.
For example, it should be possible to state that some person belongs to the
class of people born in the seventeenth century without knowing their exact
birthdate.

> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top classes should
> provide enough structure to build a consistent system.

This is verging close to mandating a very simple upper ontology. I'm not
against upper ontologies but it is possible to go too far along this route.

On the other hand, the top level of the current ontology is a mess. I've
toyed with trying to fix this, but the needs to be some guidelines before
starting on radical changes to the DBpedia ontology. (Yes, I've also thought
about what could be in these guidelines.)

> There are many extra
> ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc. that can all be sorted under these
> then. We might even resort (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe for
> roles or build a separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e.
> <Peter> a dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia Article. Given
> that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article types, we can help with
> building a structure that distinguishes between Individual articles, i.e.
> Barrack Obama and Categorial / Role-type articles, i.e.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor . Such information can be taken from text,
> which is why we are building up http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>
> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts lifelong is
> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses of
> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.

How about person born in the seventeenth century, mentioned above?

Why disallow subclasses of Person in particular? Is there anything special
about Person? Instead there should be a rationale for designating a class as
terminal in this way.
> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like spouse
> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical perspective, if
> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be something we
> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.

This is a thorny problem. However, spouse is probably not a good case. There
are very many more than a dozen people in the world (and probably quite a few
more than a dozen people in Wikipedia) with more than one spouse. The
functionality of spouse is an artifact of a particular society (unless you are
limiting spouse to that particular society).

Perhaps a better example is (biological) father for people. Nearly all people
have only one recorded father. Exceptions come from at least two sources -
recording both biological father and legal father and mythological beings who
have different fathers in different accounts. Nevertheless it is useful to
state that father is functional.

What then to do about spouse? I'm not sure.

> All the best,
> Sebastian


Peter F. Patel-Schneider
Nuance Communications
Paul Houle
2017-07-14 17:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Big picture is that that the DBpedia Ontology itself is small and you
can throw part of it or all if it away but still keep the instance data.

Religious organizations and structures are particularly problematic
because of the conflict between the "geo-spatial" view in which a church
building is a "place of interest" vs a "spiritual community" both in the
sense as an organization you might want to join, sell something to,
etc. and to address the question of why somebody would go to a church.

That is, a "church" can well be an Islamic Center that meets at some
random commercial space while it saves up money to buy a mosque, or a
coven that meets in the woods, a church that meets in the basement of
some other church, etc.

This kind of thinking is central to differences religionists have in
their thinking such that some organizations build elaborate spaces that
"look like a church" while you see some other churches that are plain,
even spartan because they they think it is what is in your heart that
counts, or adherence to doctrine, etc.

It is definitely not an area you will get complete agreement on!

------ Original Message ------
From: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <***@gmail.com>
To: "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/14/2017 12:31:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was
Re: Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

>On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should
>>see the
>> whole thing as an "information machine". From this perspective the
>>purpose of
>> the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
>>
>> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users
>>want to
>> retrieve?
>
>As a user I would like to not retrieve false information. (I realize
>that if
>there is false information in DBpedia that comes from Wikipedia there
>is
>little that can be done.) However, I don't want the DBpedia ontology
>to cause
>extra falsities. This means, for example, that monastery should not
>be a
>subclass of building.
>
>> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to
>>other
>> ontologies allows to export information into other schemas without
>>much
>> ontological committment
>
>Relying only on links between co-extensional classes is inadequate so
>using
>inclusion relationships is better. However, it would be useful to be
>able to
>say that a DBpedia class is more general than a class from other
>ontology, not
>just that it is more specific.
>
>> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every
>>person was
>> to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We are at
>>around 60%
>> right now. Another goal would be to validate the correctness by
>> cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National Library. So the
>>ontology
>> should directly produce a system that can help us track what data is
>>missing.
>> SHACL provides us with a new modeling paradigm and we will make a
>>call for
>> SHACL specs of DBpedia applications to get concrete input for
>>DBpedia's
>> ontology. We are still discussing internally where to keep them.
>>GitHub seems
>> like a good option.
>
>I don't see this as a viable goal. Sure, getting more data (out of
>Wikipedia)
>is useful, but Wikipedia isn't designed to be complete in this way.
>Further,
>some data, including birthdates, is always going to be incomplete. The
>birthdates of some historical figures are currently unknown and some of
>these
>are likely never to be known.
>
>Given that this is the case, what should be done instead? My view is
>that
>systems like DBpedia should be accepting of incomplete data. Further,
>they
>should provide facilities to get as much as possible out of incomplete
>data.
>For example, it should be possible to state that some person belongs to
>the
>class of people born in the seventeenth century without knowing their
>exact
>birthdate.
>
>> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top classes
>>should
>> provide enough structure to build a consistent system.
>
>This is verging close to mandating a very simple upper ontology. I'm
>not
>against upper ontologies but it is possible to go too far along this
>route.
>
>On the other hand, the top level of the current ontology is a mess.
>I've
>toyed with trying to fix this, but the needs to be some guidelines
>before
>starting on radical changes to the DBpedia ontology. (Yes, I've also
>thought
>about what could be in these guidelines.)
>
>> There are many extra
>> ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc. that can all be sorted under
>>these
>> then. We might even resort (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS
>>maybe for
>> roles or build a separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins,
>>i.e.
>> <Peter> a dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as
>>instance.
>> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia
>>Article. Given
>> that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article types, we can help
>>with
>> building a structure that distinguishes between Individual articles,
>>i.e.
>> Barrack Obama and Categorial / Role-type articles, i.e.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor . Such information can be taken
>>from text,
>> which is why we are building up http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>>
>> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass
>>of
>> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
>>lifelong is
>> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses
>>of
>> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
>
>How about person born in the seventeenth century, mentioned above?
>
>Why disallow subclasses of Person in particular? Is there anything
>special
>about Person? Instead there should be a rationale for designating a
>class as
>terminal in this way.
>> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
>>spouse
>> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
>>perspective, if
>> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be
>>something we
>> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
>
>This is a thorny problem. However, spouse is probably not a good case.
> There
>are very many more than a dozen people in the world (and probably quite
>a few
>more than a dozen people in Wikipedia) with more than one spouse. The
>functionality of spouse is an artifact of a particular society (unless
>you are
>limiting spouse to that particular society).
>
>Perhaps a better example is (biological) father for people. Nearly all
>people
>have only one recorded father. Exceptions come from at least two
>sources -
>recording both biological father and legal father and mythological
>beings who
>have different fathers in different accounts. Nevertheless it is
>useful to
>state that father is functional.
>
>What then to do about spouse? I'm not sure.
>
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian
>
>
>Peter F. Patel-Schneider
>Nuance Communications
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>_______________________________________________
>DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-14 17:58:59 UTC
Permalink
I can throw away parts of any ontology and still keep the instance data so
that doesn't distinguish the DBpedia ontology from other ontologies. Maybe
DBpedia is distinuished from other data sources in that in the data each
individual is an instance of only one class (or precisely one class and its
ancestors). But that's not a big distinction - I can remove redundant
instance relationships from other data sources as well.

I don't see that religious organizations are particularly difficult. Many
other entities have a similar multiple views, for example a park as a
geographical area vs a park as an administrative unit.

The (a?) problem with monastery in DBpedia is that it is a subclass of
building. However, the physical extent of a monastery is generally not a
single building or even a group of buildings but is instead a geographical
extent (complex in the DBpedia English comment on monastery) containing
buildings. So there is a contradiction between the English description of
monastery in DBpedia and its superclass building. As well, many monasteries
in DBpedia are not buildings but are instead complexes of buildings.

peter


On 07/14/2017 10:04 AM, Paul Houle wrote:
> Big picture is that that the DBpedia Ontology itself is small and you can
> throw part of it or all if it away but still keep the instance data.
>
> Religious organizations and structures are particularly problematic because of
> the conflict between the "geo-spatial" view in which a church building is a
> "place of interest" vs a "spiritual community" both in the sense as an
> organization you might want to join, sell something to, etc. and to address
> the question of why somebody would go to a church.
>
> That is, a "church" can well be an Islamic Center that meets at some random
> commercial space while it saves up money to buy a mosque, or a coven that
> meets in the woods, a church that meets in the basement of some other
> church, etc.
>
> This kind of thinking is central to differences religionists have in their
> thinking such that some organizations build elaborate spaces that "look like a
> church" while you see some other churches that are plain, even spartan
> because they they think it is what is in your heart that counts, or adherence
> to doctrine, etc.
>
> It is definitely not an area you will get complete agreement on!
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: 7/14/2017 12:31:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: Call
> for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia
>
>> On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> DBpedia has always had a firm founding in engineering and we should see the
>>> whole thing as an "information machine". From this perspective the purpose of
>>> the DBpedia Ontology becomes quite clear:
>>>
>>> - Usability for queries - driven by the question, what do our users want to
>>> retrieve?
>>
>> As a user I would like to not retrieve false information. (I realize that if
>> there is false information in DBpedia that comes from Wikipedia there is
>> little that can be done.) However, I don't want the DBpedia ontology to cause
>> extra falsities. This means, for example, that monastery should not be a
>> subclass of building.
>>
>>> - Data transformation and hubbing: subClassOf/subProperty linking to other
>>> ontologies allows to export information into other schemas without much
>>> ontological committment
>>
>> Relying only on links between co-extensional classes is inadequate so using
>> inclusion relationships is better. However, it would be useful to be able to
>> say that a DBpedia class is more general than a class from other ontology, not
>> just that it is more specific.
>>
>>> - Data Quality: in my opinion data quality increases a lot if every person
>>> was
>>> to have a birthDate, so this can be defined as a goal. We are at around 60%
>>> right now. Another goal would be to validate the correctness by
>>> cross-referencing data, e.g. to German National Library. So the ontology
>>> should directly produce a system that can help us track what data is missing.
>>> SHACL provides us with a new modeling paradigm and we will make a call for
>>> SHACL specs of DBpedia applications to get concrete input for DBpedia's
>>> ontology. We are still discussing internally where to keep them. GitHub seems
>>> like a good option.
>>
>> I don't see this as a viable goal. Sure, getting more data (out of Wikipedia)
>> is useful, but Wikipedia isn't designed to be complete in this way. Further,
>> some data, including birthdates, is always going to be incomplete. The
>> birthdates of some historical figures are currently unknown and some of these
>> are likely never to be known.
>>
>> Given that this is the case, what should be done instead? My view is that
>> systems like DBpedia should be accepting of incomplete data. Further, they
>> should provide facilities to get as much as possible out of incomplete data.
>> For example, it should be possible to state that some person belongs to the
>> class of people born in the seventeenth century without knowing their exact
>> birthdate.
>>
>>> - minimal foundation: Time, Place, maybe Events and a few top classes should
>>> provide enough structure to build a consistent system.
>>
>> This is verging close to mandating a very simple upper ontology. I'm not
>> against upper ontologies but it is possible to go too far along this route.
>>
>> On the other hand, the top level of the current ontology is a mess. I've
>> toyed with trying to fix this, but the needs to be some guidelines before
>> starting on radical changes to the DBpedia ontology. (Yes, I've also thought
>> about what could be in these guidelines.)
>>
>>> There are many extra
>>> ontologies like LHD, DBTax, Yago, etc. that can all be sorted under these
>>> then. We might even resort (please don't see it as a threat) to SKOS maybe
>>> for
>>> roles or build a separate vocabularies, that can be used as mixins, i.e.
>>> <Peter> a dbo:Person ; dbo:occupation dbo:Actor . # dbo:Actor as instance.
>>> This might also be dbr:Actor , i.e. referencing the Wikipedia Article. Given
>>> that Wikipedia is so heterogeneous in its article types, we can help with
>>> building a structure that distinguishes between Individual articles, i.e.
>>> Barrack Obama and Categorial / Role-type articles, i.e.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor . Such information can be taken from
>>> text,
>>> which is why we are building up http://wiki.dbpedia.org/textext
>>>
>>> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
>>> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
>>> lifelong is
>>> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses of
>>> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
>>
>> How about person born in the seventeenth century, mentioned above?
>>
>> Why disallow subclasses of Person in particular? Is there anything special
>> about Person? Instead there should be a rationale for designating a class as
>> terminal in this way.
>>> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like spouse
>>> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical perspective, if
>>> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be something we
>>> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
>>
>> This is a thorny problem. However, spouse is probably not a good case. There
>> are very many more than a dozen people in the world (and probably quite a few
>> more than a dozen people in Wikipedia) with more than one spouse. The
>> functionality of spouse is an artifact of a particular society (unless you are
>> limiting spouse to that particular society).
>>
>> Perhaps a better example is (biological) father for people. Nearly all people
>> have only one recorded father. Exceptions come from at least two sources -
>> recording both biological father and legal father and mythological beings who
>> have different fathers in different accounts. Nevertheless it is useful to
>> state that father is functional.
>>
>> What then to do about spouse? I'm not sure.
>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Sebastian
>>
>>
>> Peter F. Patel-Schneider
>> Nuance Communications
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
>> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-17 12:55:04 UTC
Permalink
One reason to have a subclass structure under Person (but also under any
natural kind) is to support generalizations for subcategories. Many of the
subclasses of Person in DBpedia are for occupations, e.g., Architect, Athlete,
NascarDriver, Politician, and Senator. If these subclasses of Person are
eliminated then there should be some way to retain that any senator is a
politician.

peter


On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> Hi all,
[...]
> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts lifelong is
> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses of
> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
>
> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like spouse
> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical perspective, if
> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be something we
> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
>
> All the best,
> Sebastian
>
>
Sebastian Samaruga
2017-07-17 13:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Roles? (Actor / Role pattern in OOP). I call it 'metaclasses' using the
'kind' abstraction of type inference by aggregation of common properties
and their values. RDF allows for a class to be instance (not subclass) of
another class. Also OWL restrictions could be used to model roles.

Regards,
Sebastian.
On Jul 17, 2017 9:59 AM, "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> One reason to have a subclass structure under Person (but also under any
> natural kind) is to support generalizations for subcategories. Many of the
> subclasses of Person in DBpedia are for occupations, e.g., Architect,
> Athlete,
> NascarDriver, Politician, and Senator. If these subclasses of Person are
> eliminated then there should be some way to retain that any senator is a
> politician.
>
> peter
>
>
> On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> > Hi all,
> [...]
> > By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
> > Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
> lifelong is
> > fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses of
> > Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
> >
> > Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
> spouse
> > being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical perspective,
> if
> > functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be something
> we
> > can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Sebastian
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> DBpedia-discussion mailing list
> DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>
Paul Houle
2017-07-17 14:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Some thoughts.

(1) The foaf:Agent concept applies in many cases where people would want
to use a person. In my mind an "Agent" is something that can be the
originator or recipient of a communication thus it covers corporate
personhood, etc. That still leaves the question of what "The Dallas
Cowboys Cheerleaders" being credited for a movie means for the type of
that concept.
(2) You can have as many types as you want for an instance (gotta get
over "strict tiling"!) so you can NaturalPerson tied to "has spouse" and
then have (say) Writer derived from foaf:Agent and just have a certain
individual tagged as both NaturalPerson and Writer.
(3) The idea of "a class assignment is a boolean property" is a good way
to think about it, if not necessary to represent it. Think of class in
the context of "classification" and then there is a close analogy
between machine learning and semantic systems. A practical
generalization is to add probability distributions for classifications,
but to be really useful, said probability distribution has to be a
joint probability distribution. (The NFL in the U.S. a great example
for computer science as it is composed of 32 teams that play 256 games
in a series, 16 of those teams are in the AFC, 16 are in the NFC. Off
the top of my head I am not sure if the Dallas Cowboys are in the AFC or
NFC, but I am leaning towards the NFC. I might say 80% odds they are
in the NFC (at the risk of saying something Spock-like such as "We have
a 22.1112% chance of surviving this mission, Jim") or be a Bayseian and
say beta(5,2) but the Cowboys are in one or the other according to the
T-Box, so the joint model should represent that.)
(4) So far as representation, class assignments in large databases tend
to have a probability distribution much like that of words occurring in
documents, so the kind of representations and query answering
strategies used in full-text retrieval are useful for semantics (ex.
Siren)


------ Original Message ------
From: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <***@gmail.com>
To: "Sebastian Hellmann" <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>;
***@petrobras.com.br; "Paul Houle" <***@ontology2.com>
Cc: "DBpedia" <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 7/17/2017 8:55:04 AM
Subject: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was
Re: Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

>One reason to have a subclass structure under Person (but also under
>any
>natural kind) is to support generalizations for subcategories. Many of
>the
>subclasses of Person in DBpedia are for occupations, e.g., Architect,
>Athlete,
>NascarDriver, Politician, and Senator. If these subclasses of Person
>are
>eliminated then there should be some way to retain that any senator is
>a
>politician.
>
>peter
>
>
>On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
>> Hi all,
>[...]
>> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass
>>of
>> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
>>lifelong is
>> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses
>>of
>> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
>>
>> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
>>spouse
>> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical
>>perspective, if
>> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be
>>something we
>> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Sebastian
>>
>>
j***@petrobras.com.br
2017-07-17 15:50:51 UTC
Permalink
You can keep the Occupation tree under person if you can live with the
fact that these classes describe individuals, not occupations performed by
Persons. A Senator is a Politician, but a Parliament is not, because it is
an Organization. The Beatles is a Band but not an Artist, and the same is
true for Ballets and Orchestras. If you keep organization roles and
person roles under distinct trees, it works. Note that you will not be
able to represent common daily roles such as Client or Employer this way,
since these can be performed by any Agent, not only Persons. (Caligula's
horse Incitatus being a Consul does not count.)

The English ver to be (and the French être, Russian быть etc) does not
distinguish between being permanently and being temporarily, so maybe that
is why we Portuguese (and Italian, Spanish etc) speakers note a bit of
oddness in attaching temporary roles such as occupations with a permanent
relation such as IS-A. We distinguish "ele _é_ empregado da Google" (he
is permanently an employee of Google) from "ele _está_ empregado pela
Google" (he is currently/temporarily employed by Google).

You can argue that being a Writer is not exactly a role, since you are
saying something permanent about the person, and I agree, this is the
common sense. But you must guarantee that when a text is written by an
Agent (a person, a group of writers, the Senate, a council), this will not
imply that the Agent is a Writer. In other words, the subclasses of Person
are not roles with attached actions, they are subkinds the kind Person.
Also, they are not mixins, you cannot use these for subtyping from classes
different than Person. There can be a RobotWriter, subclass of Robot, but
it cannot be a subclass of Writer, because Person and Robot should be
disjoint (for now).

One should be aware of such limitations when matching equivalent classes
in other more strict ontologies. The DBpedia ontology should never used
out of the box except for simple queries, so it is nice to keep it simple
and free of strong assertions that would hinder its use. However, if we
define no constrains at all it may lead to the misinterpretation of some
classes. Making Person and Organization disjoint classes is a must, to
avoid bad subclassing.

Cheers.
=============================================
Marcelo Jaccoud Amaral
PETROBRAS
=============================================





De: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <***@gmail.com>
Para: Sebastian Hellmann <***@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>,
***@petrobras.com.br, Paul Houle <***@ontology2.com>
Cc: DBpedia <Dbpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Data: 2017-07-17 09:55
Assunto: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology
was Re: Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia



One reason to have a subclass structure under Person (but also under any
natural kind) is to support generalizations for subcategories. Many of
the
subclasses of Person in DBpedia are for occupations, e.g., Architect,
Athlete,
NascarDriver, Politician, and Senator. If these subclasses of Person are
eliminated then there should be some way to retain that any senator is a
politician.

peter


On 07/11/2017 03:10 PM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:
> Hi all,
[...]
> By the way, is there actually any sensible class that can be subclass of
> Person? As far as I see, the only essential distinction that lasts
lifelong is
> fictious/non-fictious . We are thinking about disallowing subclasses of
> Person, unless there is a valid concern brought up.
>
> Also it seems like we will not be able to handle all exceptions like
spouse
> being non-functional for a dozen persons. From a practical perspective,
if
> functionality is consistent for 95% of the data, this might be something
we
> can live with. Proper documentation of these pitfalls can be given.
>
> All the best,
> Sebastian
>
>




"O emitente desta mensagem é responsável por seu conteúdo e endereçamento. Cabe ao destinatário cuidar quanto ao tratamento adequado. Sem a devida autorização, a divulgação, a reprodução, a distribuição ou qualquer outra ação em desconformidade com as normas internas do Sistema Petrobras são proibidas e passíveis de sanção disciplinar, cível e criminal."

"The sender of this message is responsible for its content and addressing. The receiver shall take proper care of it. Without due authorization, the publication, reproduction, distribution or the performance of any other action not conforming to Petrobras System internal policies and procedures is forbidden and liable to disciplinary, civil or criminal sanctions."

"El emisor de este mensaje es responsable por su contenido y direccionamiento. Cabe al destinatario darle el tratamiento adecuado. Sin la debida autorización, su divulgación, reproducción, distribución o cualquier otra acción no conforme a las normas internas del Sistema Petrobras están prohibidas y serán pasibles de sanción disciplinaria, civil y penal."
b***@gmail.com
2017-07-17 21:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

The problem of the proper ontology occures, if you think, what kind of
users do you have, who query your dataset. If you think there are aliens,
then you have to define the whole world with your ontology whathever your
dataset represents.

If you make for me an ontology for dbpedia-extracted wikipedia dataset,
then i guess i wouldn't have with a simple built ontology problems like:

'A Senator is a Politician, but a Parliament is not, because it is an
Organization. The Beatles is a Band but not an Artist, and the same is
true for Ballets and Orchestras. If you keep organization roles and person
roles under distinct trees, it works. Note that you will not be able to
represent common daily roles such as Client or Employer this way, since
these can be performed by any Agent, not only Persons.'

Because i am not an alien or a 3 years old child...

You have then to make a minimal ontology representing the average APRIORY
knowledge of a usual wikipedia user.

On the other side, deep in the data level, you also don't need to describe
wikipedia with your ontology in each detail, at last you show in your
UI-query application-frame the original wikipedia article to read the
missing rest, which Google makes all the time, but then you can be 2-3
clicks faster in worst case...

I think the interesting problem is how to find for a forgiven dataset the
most minimal and simple ontology basing on the 'apriory' info-level of the
aimed querying crowds.

baran.

*****

PS: Marcelo, this is not a special posting to your very interesting
contribution, but it was the last posting of this thread about which i
only made some general thoughts, thanks...


On Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:50:51 +0200, <***@petrobras.com.br> wrote:

> You can keep the Occupation tree under person if you can live with the
> fact that these classes describe individuals, not occupations performed
> by Persons. A Senator is a Politician, but a Parliament is not, because
> it is an Organization. The Beatles is a Band but not an Artist, and the
> same is true for Ballets and Orchestras. If you keep organization roles
> and person roles under distinct trees, it works. Note that you will not
> be able to represent common daily roles such as Client or Employer this
> way, since these can be performed by any Agent, not only Persons.
> (Caligula's horse Incitatus being a Consul does not count.)


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Peter F. Patel-Schneider
2017-07-23 13:14:31 UTC
Permalink
There was a suggestion to eliminate all or most of the subclasses of Person
from the DBpedia ontology. What happens then?

The current DBpedia ontology has a large number of classes under Person.
Many of these classes are related to occupations, such as Architect, Artist,
and Athlete. Under many of these occupation classes there are other,
more-specific classes, such as MusicalArtist, Guitarist, MotorSportRacer,
and NascarDriver. Asserting that a person belongs to one of the
more-specific classes, such as NascarDriver, implies that the person belongs
to its generalizations under Person, e.g., RacingDriver, MotorSportRacer,
and Athlete for NascarDriver. The hierarchy of classes under Person
provides DBpedia with a easy-to-use way of inferring significant
information, such that if Kyle Busch is stated to be a NascarDriver then he
is also a RacingDriver. This way of representing occupations has the
advantages of being simple to specify and simple to use.

If these subclasses of Person are eliminated there will have to be a
multi-valued property for occupation, and then an instance of Person that is
currently stated to be an instance of the class NascarDriver will have
occupation nascarDriver. There will also have to be a generalization
relationship between occupations, so that nascarDriver is a sub-occupation
of racingDriver (and maybe also directly of motorSportRacer and athlete).

Then there has to be a way of making this generalization relationship be
effective. One way of doing this would be to have a convention that
retrieving people with an occupation also retrieves people with
sub-occupations of that occupation. However, this places a large burden on
users of DBpedia. Alternatively there could be a set of axioms (or rules)
asserting something like that whenever an instance of Person has an
occupation that it also has all of the super-occupations of that occupation.
This places an extra requirement either on the DBpedia extraction mechanism
to materialize these inferences when DBpedia versions are created
or on DBpedia services to make the results of these inferences available to
users of the service.

Another way of making occupations work correctly would be to have the
DBpedia ontology include definitions for the occupation-based subclasses of
Person, e.g., defining Artist as those instances of Person who have an
occupation of artist or one of its sub-occupations. Under this methodology
users of DBpedia don't need to change how they query for artists. However,
this of course places a burden either on the DBpedia extraction mechanism
or on DBpedia servers to perform the inferences needed to determine the
membership of these defined classes.

The replacement described above is not even adequate for the
occupation-related subclasses of Person. Some of the subclasses of
occupation-related classes, e.g., PrimeMinister, are not really occupations,
just positions that imply an occupation. There will thus have to either be
different additions made to the retrieval conventions or to the assertion
axioms or the class definitions to account for these non-occupation
subclasses.

So although it is possible to eliminate explicit stating of membership in
such subclasses in favour of properties, there are significant difficulties.
I don't see that any gain achieved is worth the pain involved, particularly
if the DBpedia ontology doesn't use a powerful ontology language.

One advantage of going to a powerful ontology language is that other kinds
of definitions and axioms can be used, such as defining one class as the
disjoint union of several other classes. If there is a need for such
definitions anyway then the cost of using a powerful ontology language
is paid already so it may as well be also used to define classes in terms
of property values.

Peter F. Patel-Schneider
Nuance Communications
Kuys, Gerard
2017-07-24 10:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Reflecting on Peter Patel-Schneiders comments - for which I thank him - I think we should separate our concerns a little bit more. These are:

* What information do we want to express in relation to Persons in some formal or informal capacity?
* Simultaneous roles, capacities, or some Person’s public performance ordered in time
* Some taxonomy of professional occupations
* Some taxonomy of public positions or ‘claims to fame’
* In case our source would contain information on kinship relations, would we value that enough to model, extract and store such information?
* What is the best way to model and record information on public activities and/or occupations, and, by recording this in some particular way, are we adding barriers to a user’s ease of use when retrieving this kind of information?
* If no subclasses to Person, then what exactly? Role classes? PersonFunctions?
* What would be the best way to fill in the upper categories of Roles or Functions? Providing (and maintaining) detailed taxonomies? Filling the remaining gaps by way of inference?
* In how far will we put too great a strain on the extraction process, if we would want to fill a rather complicated model with data that cannot be extracted in a sufficient sophisticated manner from the available Wikipedia texts?
* Our extractors, are they able to detect Roles as different from the Persons themselves? Would they be able to relate a time interval to such a Role instance?

From my point of view, the implicit ordering in occupations, which now can be inferred from the set of subclasses to the Person class, can be expressed just as well in some other hierarchy. Having occupations or public roles expressed as a subclass of Person does not solve the problem of simultaneity or that of ordering in time any more than a taxonomy of Roles would.


And, of course, we will have to consider how the transition to any kind of new model is to be managed. Will we be using the existing ontology and the refurbished ontology one next to the other? Or will we provide several query interfaces to one and the same underlying model?


Gerard Kuys


Dutch-language DBpedia


________________________________
Van: Peter F. Patel-Schneider <***@gmail.com>
Verzonden: zondag 23 juli 2017 15:14:31
Aan: ***@petrobras.com.br
CC: DBpedia
Onderwerp: Re: [DBpedia-discussion] Purpose of the DBpedia Ontology was Re: Call for Ontology Editor demos for DBpedia

There was a suggestion to eliminate all or most of the subclasses of Person
from the DBpedia ontology. What happens then?

The current DBpedia ontology has a large number of classes under Person.
Many of these classes are related to occupations, such as Architect, Artist,
and Athlete. Under many of these occupation classes there are other,
more-specific classes, such as MusicalArtist, Guitarist, MotorSportRacer,
and NascarDriver. Asserting that a person belongs to one of the
more-specific classes, such as NascarDriver, implies that the person belongs
to its generalizations under Person, e.g., RacingDriver, MotorSportRacer,
and Athlete for NascarDriver. The hierarchy of classes under Person
provides DBpedia with a easy-to-use way of inferring significant
information, such that if Kyle Busch is stated to be a NascarDriver then he
is also a RacingDriver. This way of representing occupations has the
advantages of being simple to specify and simple to use.

If these subclasses of Person are eliminated there will have to be a
multi-valued property for occupation, and then an instance of Person that is
currently stated to be an instance of the class NascarDriver will have
occupation nascarDriver. There will also have to be a generalization
relationship between occupations, so that nascarDriver is a sub-occupation
of racingDriver (and maybe also directly of motorSportRacer and athlete).

Then there has to be a way of making this generalization relationship be
effective. One way of doing this would be to have a convention that
retrieving people with an occupation also retrieves people with
sub-occupations of that occupation. However, this places a large burden on
users of DBpedia. Alternatively there could be a set of axioms (or rules)
asserting something like that whenever an instance of Person has an
occupation that it also has all of the super-occupations of that occupation.
This places an extra requirement either on the DBpedia extraction mechanism
to materialize these inferences when DBpedia versions are created
or on DBpedia services to make the results of these inferences available to
users of the service.

Another way of making occupations work correctly would be to have the
DBpedia ontology include definitions for the occupation-based subclasses of
Person, e.g., defining Artist as those instances of Person who have an
occupation of artist or one of its sub-occupations. Under this methodology
users of DBpedia don't need to change how they query for artists. However,
this of course places a burden either on the DBpedia extraction mechanism
or on DBpedia servers to perform the inferences needed to determine the
membership of these defined classes.

The replacement described above is not even adequate for the
occupation-related subclasses of Person. Some of the subclasses of
occupation-related classes, e.g., PrimeMinister, are not really occupations,
just positions that imply an occupation. There will thus have to either be
different additions made to the retrieval conventions or to the assertion
axioms or the class definitions to account for these non-occupation
subclasses.

So although it is possible to eliminate explicit stating of membership in
such subclasses in favour of properties, there are significant difficulties.
I don't see that any gain achieved is worth the pain involved, particularly
if the DBpedia ontology doesn't use a powerful ontology language.

One advantage of going to a powerful ontology language is that other kinds
of definitions and axioms can be used, such as defining one class as the
disjoint union of several other classes. If there is a need for such
definitions anyway then the cost of using a powerful ontology language
is paid already so it may as well be also used to define classes in terms
of property values.

Peter F. Patel-Schneider
Nuance Communications


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
DBpedia-discussion mailing list
DBpedia-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion

Disclaimer
Dit bericht met eventuele bijlagen is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u niet de bedoelde ontvanger bent, wordt u verzocht de afzender te waarschuwen en dit bericht met eventuele bijlagen direct te verwijderen en/of te vernietigen. Het is niet toegestaan dit bericht en eventuele bijlagen te vermenigvuldigen, door te sturen, openbaar te maken, op te slaan of op andere wijze te gebruiken. Ordina N.V. en/of haar groepsmaatschappijen accepteren geen verantwoordelijkheid of aansprakelijkheid voor schade die voortvloeit uit de inhoud en/of de verzending van dit bericht.

This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and are solely intended for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete and/or destroy this message and any attachments immediately. It is prohibited to copy, to distribute, to disclose or to use this e-mail and any attachments in any other way. Ordina N.V. and/or its group companies do not accept any responsibility nor liability for any damage resulting from the content of and/or the transmission of this message.
Loading...